QQ- what's the river play?

[SlyAK]

NL 200 max, 1/2 blinds... I have 200 after having just reloaded. I pick up Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in MP, and open-raise to $8. CO, (LAG w/ 550) calls, as does BB (LAG w/ 400). Both of these callers see almost every flop and can get very aggressive post-flop. Have seen both of them take down big pots w/ TPLK (low kicker)...

Flop is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] BB checks, I bet $25, both players call.

Turn K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] checked around.

River 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] BB bets $56 into me... what is my move and why???

Advice on other streets appreciated as well. I think I made multiple mistakes on this hand.

Sly

[gomberg]

preflop, raise seems standard. If you think a LAG will raise most times preflop, you can consider a limp-reraise - but only agianst very LAG preflop types.

I like the flop bet - but again, you can consider a CR if you think LAG will attempt to take pot away from you.

I don't like the check on the turn. There are too many free cards that kill you. Plus, you represented a big hand with the preflop raise, so hopefully they'll fear the K and fold. I usually will bet here against LAG types but check against people who cold call with AK or pairs. Plus, a bet here will usually makes the rest of the hand easier to play.

On the river, I think it's close. You induced a bluff, but a very likely hand got there (any 8). You also have to worry about the player behind you, but it seems he was probably drawing, and a call by you will force him to fold. You're getting ~3:1 on the call. You have to ask yourself if he would bluff there multiway more than once in four times. I probably fold, but if I called, I'd expect to see an 8 or a K. It would really help to know what a 1/2 pot bet on the river usually means out of this player.

[SlyAK]

I think a busted club-draw would be possible, as well as an 8, or a King... maybe even something like a 4 out of this guy. I was planning to push if no overcard or club feel on the turn. Unfortunately that didnt happen.

What would you think of raising more preflop to like $15? I think these guys both still probably call. Another thing I think I could have done, would have been to overbet the pot to $35 or even $40 on the flop. These guys were loose callers, and loose with their bets if they thought they were ahead. I could still easily get called by a flush draw or 8 with that type of flop bet....

Just a couple more thoughts.

Sly

[coltrane]

it's tough when you don't know the opponents.....do they like to chase?....what kind of hands do they chase with and how much money will they spend (getting improper odds) to chase......sure it's a little scary to get two smooth-calls on a pot-sized bet on the flop, but that means your probably either way ahead or way behind.....it's so opponent dependent though in order for you to know....I think you make a big bet on the turn (maybe like 3/4 of the pot)...if someone pushes, I might lay it down (again, depends...) ....

[SlyAK]

These 2 players would both chase with a draw or probably any pair, hoping to spike 2 pair, etc. I think my turn play was weak. I should have bet out there, and continued to represent the big hand. The more I think about it, the more I could define these players as "aggressive calling stations". They are probably seeing 70-80% of flops at least, bullying if they sense weakness, and calling with ANY draw or piece of board. And they are running hot at the table.

Sly

[NotAClue]

Preflop: I would stick with whatever open raise you have been making. If you want to kick it up to $15, you're gonna have to do that with all your hands which may not be desirable.

Flop: There's little point in overbetting the pot, because it really doesn't make the turn any easier. You have bet enough so that both callers are getting improper odds to see the turn. I don't think there's any point in making the pot bigger than it needs be.

Given your turn check, I think you pretty narrowly defined your hand down to QQ (maybe JJ). Calling the river comes down to how often he would make this bet on a busted draw versus a K or 8.

Not to mention you still have to CO to act behind you; it would be unfortunate if CO raised after you called the BB's bet.

[SlyAK]

I went in the tank and finally folded. The other LAG folded behind and the BB didnt show. The more I think about it the more I think that I should have called. These players werent overly tricky just aggressive. I think that either one of them would have bet with a King when it hit. So basically I have to fear trip 8's here. Getting 3:1 it feels like a call.

Betting the turn is also a possibility but it nearly makes me pot-committed, not a situation I like to be in with an overcard to my pair, and one player still to act behind me.

Thanks for the replies,
Sly

[bunky9590]

FWIW, I play it the same.

Execpt I dont tank on the river, I muck it pretty quickly.

Pick a better spot to bust the lags. It'll come.

I didn't play much Prima NL yesterday. They had a 10-20 limit game running. Maniac festival. Roller Coaster ride but walked away up about 300. (after being down 400+)

[bunky9590]

I'm not building a pot on the turn for them with an overpair. Check ing behind is the superior play. If the 8 didnt pair, I call there. Being calling stations I can't not put them on an 8.

[cornell2005]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a busted club-draw would be possible

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldnt strongly put him on a potential busted flush draw since the pot is still 3-way on the river, especially when you consider that you know and he probably knows the other guy in the pot is a lag. a busted draw seems much less likely than the other holdings you mentioned