Serious Rant about telling people about 2+2 (Long) but w/ content IMO

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Poker is a -EV game due to rake. You only win because you take money from people (fish as you say) who make bad decisions. How can trying to make a player a better poker player help? If the number of fish was infinity, then I wouldn't care. But because it's not one less bad player is still one less bad player! And that is totally -ev for me. If you wanna play with better players move up limits or play only at the 2+2 tables.

[Eder]

I'm grateful for the SS forum...I know when I up against a 2+2 I can sit back and wait till the river to cr [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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(sigh)
Another thread about not educating the fish in the chat window. There are 57,000+ people on PP right now. My guess is 50,000 are fish. Spend more time studying poker and less time worrying about someone educating a few fish.

Flame away.

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was this a joke? i hope so....

Let me add a little bit of thought from the point of view of a prof ... just because you tell someone where they can learn information, in no way means they learn it.

The number of answers on exams which have a few key words ... applied completely out of context ... is large.

This likely applies here too ... i do not think we need to assume that someone reading 2+2 makes them any better, and in fact, there are likely a large number of people that either become worse because they think they know what they are doing, or spend a awfully large sum of money trying to learn ... money they wouldn't have spent if they thought they couldn't win.

Further ... everytime we direct someone to bonuswhores or some other thread, that increases the money they play with ... this is good for us.

just my 0.02

[MrWookie47]

I agree with you in part. I have no problems telling people about 2+2 in person because, really, they probably won't put in the work. However, mentioning 2+2 at the table is STILL a bad idea. You don't want anyone at the table to actually think you're a good player. They may start playing better against you (either by bluffing more, or by folding more, typically), or worse yet, leave. There's no harm in talking up this board at any other time, however.

[kapw7]

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You don't want anyone at the table to actually think you're a good player.

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Maybe I just wanted to start where I did, so that I could lead into a Tyler Durden motivational speech.

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We are the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Fish knowing about 2+2: don't care.

Fish being told at table about 2+2: means exactly the same thing as when another fish types "YOU PLAYED THAT CRAP? RIVER SUCKOUT NH FISH." Neither is acceptable.

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The only thing that wories me is the fish that would stay fish but find their way here, realize how hard this game is, and quit poker cause they don't have that drive.

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This is the real issue.

Fish start playing because the message the media has presented is: anyone can win with any two cards; experience not necessary. It started with Chris Moneymaker, continued with Gus Hansen cleaning up in the WPT, and should be helped along by this year's WSOP, featuring that bowler who wasn't even in Vegas for poker, and Joe Hachem's 7.5-million-winning hand of 7-3 offsuit.

Tons of people believe poker is a game of intuition (I admit to having believed that myself). To shatter that myth is to derail the gravy train. I don't think that'll happen any time soon, but I don't want to do anything to help it along, either.

All people need to know is that I got lucky. The hard work will be my secret.

[TomBrooks]

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To all who promoted that fish should not be told about 2+2 I bring only one argument. To get good at this game you have to have the discipline and drive to become good at it.

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That’s true, but I don't see that as a reason to excuse bad etiquette at a table.

Giving advice to weaker players will annoy the better players at the table. You are bound to make them dislike you.

At the same time, most recreational players want to have a little fun without receiving unsolicited lessons from some know-it-all about how they can improve their game or increase their poker knowledge. They are likely to resent what they may correctly or incorrectly interpret as your superior attitude.

Most recreational players know the odds are good they will lose money. They want to play anyway. They didn't come to the table to go to school.

Further, if they employ any of your advice successfully, they will likely credit themselves for their own efforts. If they employ your advice and are in any way unsuccessful, they will likely blame you. You lose either way.

If you want to make friends at a table, have a good time, and contribute to others at the table having a good time, giving advice is not usually the best way to go. Showing a little empathy if they complain about losing a pot they expected to win, or engaging in a little friendly chat about something other than the way they play, is far more likely to win you friends and add to the enjoyment of everyone at the table.

More than once I've chatted with players who lost a bunch at a table, and when they or I leave, we've parted with cheerful and warm regards. The couple of times I've seen one of them again, they've greeted me and sounded genuinely pleased to see me. Has that ever happened with someone you gave poker advice to?

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Yeah I have 2 friends and my boss that are in this group they know about it and I keep pushing them to work on their game but that's too much work for them. One acctually lives off his Party SnG winnings (because he's just good enough to whip those fish, but if he wants to make a living at it there's bigger fish), but both my freinds spend time in OOT for "hot chick" threads but the strategy is to much work it seems.

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Why bother trying to push anyone to play poker better? If a person can't motivate himself to do this, it's a waste of time and energy.

I bet you are really enthusiastic about poker, but plenty of people don't care to hear about. Sure, you can talk about it to them to get their chops wet, if you want to get a home game going or something.

Oh, btw, Malmuth thinks it's a bad idea to discuss strategy at the table. I would think that this would include talking about internet forums, etc.

I think you should just keep quiet and play. It's either -EV or 0 EV...definitely not +EV.

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Joe Hachem's 7.5-million-winning hand of 7-3 offsuit

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a hand he played pretty well with a massive chip lead, don't you think?