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#1
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Re: 88 playing against no overcards
The pot is small, and the straight draw is low, making it less likely. A raise here offers poor odds even to people calling one bet. Raising now is good.
Def. raise preflop. |
#2
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Re: 88 playing against no overcards
[ QUOTE ]
The pot is small, and the straight draw is low, making it less likely. A raise here offers poor odds even to people calling one bet. Raising now is good. Def. raise preflop. [/ QUOTE ] I wasn't advocating not raising the flop, I was merely stating an argument could be made for waiting for the turn (and for a different reason than the OP stated). Personally, I raise this flop all day. |
#3
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Re: 88 playing against no overcards
I'm thinking about this hand from the standpoint of winning at showdown. Nobody is folding to the raise on the flop. So regardless, we're going to see a turn here. There are a lot of very bad turn cards for our hand, and only a few truly good ones. I think this is a situation where we have a best hand that is very likely to get cracked on the turn or river.
For this reason, I think we should wait to the turn before raising. Firstly, we get to see if the turn card has helped or hurt our hand. Secondly, the bet size is bigger, so we get more money in the pot when we are ahead. Finally, a turn raise after a flop call is a very scary move in the eyes of most players, which I think will frighten the other players into checking to us on the River. We can then make a decision to bet or check through based on the river card. But I'm an idiot and you're a mod, feel free to rip me apart. |
#4
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Re: 88 playing against no overcards
Yep, that about sums up the argument I was expecting. Unfortunately, against random blind hands, there are very few cards that will increase our pot equity enough to warrant waiting for the turn to raise. We already have over 50% pot equity against two players. Raise the flop for value.
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#5
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Re: 88 playing against no overcards
[ QUOTE ]
We already have over 50% pot equity against two players. [/ QUOTE ] Wow that really surprises me. How did you derive that figure? |
#6
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Re: 88 playing against no overcards
You're more than welcome to argue with me. Just because my name is green doesn't mean I can never post incorrect advice. However, here's another thing to consider. What turn cards are we waiting for? What cards will you raise? Even a deuce could be a danger. With hands played from the blinds, their hand ranges are incredibly large. We don't know necessarily that an A is doom or than a 2 is safe. All we really know is that the bettor almost certainly doesn't have two overcards. He likely has a pair, and he might have a straight draw of some sort, and he might have an overcard. What we do know is that we very likely have the best hand now, and we have an equity edge. Raising, in addition to being for value, will make the hand easier to play. If we get c/r'd on the turn, we can almost certainly fold. I like raising and betting (not raising, mind you) until someone says I should stop.
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#7
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Re: 88 playing against no overcards
I make a crying call. You are probably beat, but at least it sets a precedent that you can't be bluffed on the river. Also, it gives you some information as to how the villain plays. If he called down with 2 overs all the way to the river make a note that it will be very hard to push him out in situations like this. Also, note the c/r for future hands one way or another. You will either find out he c/r bluffs or c/r when he hits his card on the river.
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#8
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Re: 88 playing against no overcards
Methinks you should have left it up to us what you should do on the river, because I find my thoughts biased by the fact you got check-raised.
I think you're right in thinking you should have called the flop and bet/raised the turn. You most definitely have the best hand at both streets. To be honest I'm not sure about the river and like I said, my answer is biased because of the c/r. That said, I think I bet it out like you did and swear profusely when raised. |
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