English Harbour Casino - Stay the hell away

[lunchmeat]

I'm blown away by this. I have a few questions.

1)What kind of bankroll do you need to minimize r.o.r?
2) Why Aces & Faces instead of Jacks or Better.
3) Are the comps high enough at other microgaming casinos to make this worthwhile or does it only work at casino rewards?
4) Finally,if you don't mind me asking. What's the EV on this.
5) How do you refuse a deposit bonus. Aren't they credited automatically? Is this somehow different for Casino Rewards? (Just edited this question in)

Thanks very much.

[lunchmeat]

I did some calculations on this. Here's what I came up with for the expected value of 1 million in wagers.

$1,000,000 X .992556 =-$7,444
(Wagers) X (return)= (EV before bonuses factored in)

Next I factored in the comp points

$1,000,000 / ($10 X 1.5) = 150,000 points
(wagers) / (number of points per $10 wagered)= points

150,000 /100= $1,500
(points)/(points per dollar)= amount of cash made off comps

You also received $1,200 in free money and another 1,200 in perks for a total of $2,400.

So for a million in wagers you should expect to:
make $1,500 in comps + $2400 in other bonus, but lose $7,444 playing video poker. This adds up to an EV of negative $3544 for every $1,000,000 wagered. So unless I'm missing something your video poker system is -EV.

[Il_Mostro]

I had the same experience there, going through the first 275$ in record time. But, to their defense I have to add:
after going through the 275 free $, and about 5 of my own, I asked to cash out the remaining 270 I had deposited. It took a while, and I had to send an email axplaining that I was not very happy, but I did get my money. Thus, the experience only costed me 5$

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
never played a hand of bj online in my life.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, the original thread was about BJ, but either way I still don't see how this can make you money. I guess my question is still: are you sure this is +EV or have you just been getting lucky?

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry about these posts after promising to use this ID only
for the message. however, i don't want to associate these screengrabs
with myself, and GoM could not go away with someone questioning
the ability to win at something other than BJ with online casinos
(expensive myth)


[/ QUOTE ]

posting the screens here is fine. You didn't have to, it's not that we don't believe that you made money on it. It's just that we don't think it's profitable in the long run. Lunchmeat did some calculations that suggest it isn't. But even without the calcualations, common sense would seem to suggest that there's really no way you could just set the autoplay on, collect comps and win money. First of all, if you could, everybody would be doing it. Second, they wouldn't make any money and would have to close.


As far as fast mode goes, if you are correct in assuming that you have a return that is over 100%, then you are correct that the more money you can get through the machine every hour, the better. But if you don't have the advantage, then fast mode will just make you lose your money faster.

[Webster]

Well - I have to agree that trying to make $$ on a negitive expectation game is foolish UNLESS you have some pretty awesome comps and a good sze bank to begn with.

I do know that if you play 8 hours of vid Poker a day in LV you get comped the room and it works out to be a good deal.

SO with that said, PERHAPS it can be done but . . . . .why!

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
Well - I have to agree that trying to make $$ on a negitive expectation game is foolish UNLESS you have some pretty awesome comps and a good sze bank to begn with.


[/ QUOTE ]

I used the word "comps", but that's not exactly what were talking about here. Not free hotel rooms or crappy buffets or anything. It's more like a cashback reward based on how much you play. You get a percentage return based on how much you gamble. So here's how it works: You play a machine which, with absolutely perfect play (which you never have to worry about as long as the machine is programmed correctly), returns 99.5% (or whatever it actually is) of your money. It doesn't take a genius to see that playing this machine on autoplay would break even Donald Trump in the long run. There's just no way to win. But now, let's say that you are some high roller and they give you a 1% cashback reward. Now, you have a game that is returning 100.5% of your money. If you could fire this up on autoplay 24 hours a day on multiple casinos, all you'd need would be a bankroll big enough to withstand the short term fluctuations and this would basically be a license to print your own money. Of course there are issues like you have to find a casino that you can trust and then if all of this actually works, you'd have to hope they don't cut you off once they find out you are making money at it.

There are professional video poker players in Las Vegas, and this is how they think. They earn their living based on cashback rewards and casino promotions. Some of these make the better machines in Vegas add up to way over 100%, generating expected values of $200-$400 an hour or more. (you can imagine the swings, too!)

I just think GoM will find out that he's just been getting lucky and it can't work in the long run. But who knows, if they made the comps too high for the "high rollers", then maybe it can...

[GhostOfMae]

[ QUOTE ]
I did some calculations on this. Here's what I came up with for the expected value of 1 million in wagers.

$1,000,000 X .992556 =-$7,444
(Wagers) X (return)= (EV before bonuses factored in)

Next I factored in the comp points

$1,000,000 / ($10 X 1.5) = 150,000 points
(wagers) / (number of points per $10 wagered)= points

150,000 /100= $1,500
(points)/(points per dollar)= amount of cash made off comps

You also received $1,200 in free money and another 1,200 in perks for a total of $2,400.

So for a million in wagers you should expect to:
make $1,500 in comps + $2400 in other bonus, but lose $7,444 playing video poker. This adds up to an EV of negative $3544 for every $1,000,000 wagered. So unless I'm missing something your video poker system is -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

honest to goodness last post under this ID. i'll create another video poker id tonight or tomorrow. i really don't want to have this as part of the GoM archive, and it is too easy for uncle big brother irs sam to find me.

the million dollar play through happens on 16k win months only (with an additional two to four top pays at 4-8k each)

the "secret" to OUR successes (i have a partner in the vid poker that IS of this world), lies in pulling out 80% of the win and locking it up. The rest remains a freeroll obviously. We have had an amazing 6 months, but would still be way ahead even if we were hitting the royals at normal frequency. This is due to proper money management, and the BR to handle big variances through dry spells. i did not, and will not, spell out exactly how we do this money management, but it is not a secret, nor a myth. it simply is taking advantage of good months via heavy playthrough, and minimizing bad months (or normal months) with regular playthrough.

there are some flaws in your overly simplistic $1mil formula above, and i'll just touch on a couple, but WILL come back as a video poker iD (This is internet gambling still, right? we won't get flamed for not talking holdem or internet poker? i can go on and on and on and on about online casinos, and LOVE to because we learn new things about it through this discourse. also, discussing our methods can't affect our welcome in the casino. we are completely above board and breaking no casino rules online)

1. the $1million months are freerolls of their money, and you don't take into account that on those months we have exceeded the regular payout already because we were lucky to hit the bottom royals. when you hit a bottom royal, or a $20 single, or even 2, 50cent bottoms, you have blown through 100%, and therefore your formula on expected losses is incorrect. also, $1mil months sometimes show us machine returns of 120%+ (i said you need lucky months as well)

2. you have not figured in the elevated reward club, match bonuses that come with every purchase we make when we have achieved elevated reward club status (or we don't purchase). we make our purchases in 1k increments taking advantage ONLY of the alternate payment method bonuses (firepay, NETeller vs. CC). we also utilize SOME recurring vip bonuses on reloads, but they have to exceed $100/week, and have playthroughs equal to, or under 10X. as i said, the research is endless, and the ever changing promos make for 200 pages of spreadsheet notes and extensive calendar/reminder softwares. however, thanks to viper, we do most of the research WHILE playing. try THAT in a B&M lol. these vip offers require zero to 10 times playthru, depending upon the site. having NEVER availed ourselves of the INITIAL match bonus in ANY casino ever, has kept us off all watch lists. they certainly watch our play (sometimes hourly), but we can't be classified as abusers under any TsandCs out there.

3. the biggest work each month is deciding which casino, or group of casinos to play, and we decide that by offers, promos (many many online casinos runs vid poker promos that pay X dollars to highest wagererers... we always win this, or at least consolations), host calls, gifts received etc. when we make a big score like we have at the casino rewards group, we will stay there until THEIR money is gone, having already locked OUR money up by cashing in 80% of royals as they hit.

there is so much more, and i should not have presented a snapshot of just this particular casino group, because we continue to crush it (by luck we can say crush, normal play+money management = grind)

finally, it suprises me that you have not run into others doing this. it is a JOB that has been around longer than online casinos. 15 years ago, i was a "puller" for teams in a casino city, and spent my entire days playing 9/6 or 9/7 jacks or better full pays when the progressives rose above $1200. i was the 25cent machine puller (along with 2 others), and this "job" bankrolled my ability to play with my own dough, so i could stop stealing money from my backers/employers. there are hundreds of teams that do this in B&M's, where the +EV is slightly lower, even taking into account the fact that no play begins until the progressive reaches X level.

video poker teams exist now and flood the markets where progressive, full pay machines with a decent comp program exists (double days, cashback, etc). however, viper sites are "moving them to the homes" because of the exponentially higher amounts of hands dealt that can be played PERFECTLY with viper auto play. btw, did you know that one lazy, or unskilled, or slow puller can literally break a team? viper is perfect play, played perfectly, at blinding speeds that these teams can't come close too without a hundred pullers (raising the overhead and defeating the purpose)


you identified the paradox of acheiving such high playthrough on certain months, and the -EV one would expect, but you missed a few points that are important (such as the stop loss with the 80% withdrawal, and the 100% weekly bonuses.. the weekly bonuses are fractional in results tho... it is all about the "free play", and the balls to keep on plodding". i do congratulate you on identifying the single limitation of higher than expected successes. this is an example of a common video poker obstacle called the drop rate, and can ONLY be beaten by the cash-ins along the way.

oh, the reason the royal shown are aces and faces--> when we first try a site, we will start with this game because the house advantage is higer, so we make friends quicker with the operator. with enough quads, that happen OFTEN at the speed of play, we are already heroes with the casino before we switch to JorB, but still are minimizing the drop rate. once we acheive the playthough status we need to elevate to highest reward level, we rarely play anything but JorB. however, a few sites (because of us and other like us we are told), have fractionalized points earned on JoB, thus making aces and faces our only choice if we do not want to leave the "property". the payback difference is minimal though, and i actually suggest you start with aces and faces.

intercasino (and all cryptologic sites) have a 10 play i like to play on my OWN dime, but only double bonus games and exotics are offered with the JoB, and the JoB does not make you popular with crypto sites, that offer the ideal 3play. my partner does not share revenue on anything but micro sites since viper was released. i played a 100 play machine the other day at royal circus just to test the software. it was fun, but our distrust of the operators, and lame vip programs make it recreation, not business. they are releasing 1,000 play machines soon..

last aside (see, don't get me started). if the microgaming sites power games offered 3 handed, instead of ONLY 4 handed, i would be a millionaire in 2 years. there is no coincidence or just random choice that the 4 play is the only one offered by microgaming. it is the ideal medium for the house and player. 3 play has too much player advantage, and anything over 4 play is ridiculously slanted against the player, and should be played only for fun or smaller stakes.

sorry for typos and grammar errors, but i have to go for the afternoon, but wanted to respond.

good luck

[DaPlaya]

I have played 10 handed videopoker at a Microgaming site. It was a long time ago, so I don't remember which one. I played at Royal Vegas Casino recently, but they did not have 10 handed. I don't know what you mean by viper, is that an option you can select? Where is the option? I only see one version I can play. Can you explain how viper is different? I hated the Royal Vegas Poker because I know I was cheated one night. I only had $50 there, and asked them to transfer it to the casino at the beginning. I think i have $30 or so there, but I can't find viper, just the regular games. Why did you stop last night at Paradise? I did not intend to bother you, you talked to me too. They said you left because I talked too much. I think you were just hitting and running again, but they said you never talk, so I must have bothered you. Just tell me to be quiet. I was just trying to have fun and thought you were having fun too. I tried to send you a message here after you left this morning, but it says you don't accept them. Sorry if I was a pain. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]