Cold Calling

[xpokerx]

In limit poker, cold calling probably causes people to lose more money than any other single mistake. It's not just the 2 SB that you put into the pot when cold calling a raise, its the extra bets on later streets you lose when you hit a very good SECOND best hand.

In my opinon, you should only cold call a raise with a hand you are willing to reraise with. If this is the case, then you should usually be three betting instead of cold calling.

[grimel]

Just to give some SSHE perspective - cold call only with AQs, AJs, and KQs (some med/small PP and suited connectores IF 3 or more have entered the pot. Roughly per SSHE that works out to cold calling about ONCE every 5hrs of online play (assuming 100 hands/hr).

That's a pretty strong argument for not doing it very often. Fold or re-raise should be the normal action.

[pzhon]

Most hands are not strong enough to enter a raised pot with no discount. (Limping hands would be happy to get a 50% discount, which is why if you limp, you should call one more bet from a raise behind you.) A common leak is to cold-call with a hand worth limping. This costs significantly less than 1 SB (out of the 2 SB put in) but the pot is often large, so many losing players don't notice how bad it is. It is a serious problem because it is a mistake that can be repeated often.

Hands that are strong enough to enter a raised pot with no discount are often better off 3-betting. This applies more pressure to the blinds and limpers. It's quite possible that you and the original raiser have an equity edge over the other players in the pot and are both happier to put 3 bets in whether your opponents call or fold.

In NL, it is much more commonly correct to call a raise (and much more commonly correct to limp and then fold to a raise). The raise is larger, so there is no need to 3-bet to add pressure to the blinds. Position is more important, so you may enter the pot with no discount even if you think you are behind the raiser's range of hands. Reraising lightly is dangerous, since it may be very costly to let preflop raiser act again.

There are some hands and situations in which it may be right to cold-call in limit when many players wouldn't. Many people are familiar with the idea of cold-calling with KQs, AJs, and AQs, but in some circumstances, I believe it is right to cold-call with AK when you feel you would have a more significant equity edge in a multiway pot.

[sexypanda]

You guys are completely forgetting about "floating". I got the term from a Mike I. post but it's been something I've been doing for a little while now without really realizing it.

It's a move that (I think) works better in NL than limit (though there are times where it's applicable to limit), but is powerful against the right opponents. It's pretty much cold-calling a raise against a relatively weak player with the intention of stealing the pot in a later round. You're really just betting on your opponent to miss his hand, and if you call with a hand with big implied odds, you also can make money by hitting your miracle hand and getting your opponent to stack off. So even though your hand itself may not have much equity, if you incorporate your position, fold-equity and implied odds in, it might be profitable to cold-call every once in a while with a junky hand.

[Dov]

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Dov lists some pretty good reasons not to cold call (though I would say her reasons are a lot more applicable to NL and or tournament play), but misses the most important reason of all.

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She's a he.

Except when he plays with a skirt on...
[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[senjitsu]

[ QUOTE ]
She's a he.

Except when he plays with a skirt on...
[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

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Lol... I have no idea why I assumed you were female... maybe I was thinking Dov like the bird Dove...

[jackfrost]

[ QUOTE ]
In limit poker, cold calling probably causes people to lose more money than any other single mistake. It's not just the 2 SB that you put into the pot when cold calling a raise, its the extra bets on later streets you lose when you hit a very good SECOND best hand.

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Don't get me wrong, i very rareley cold call, but I strongly disagree with this comment pertaining to this arguement. People seem to think that there preflop play is the most important aspect of there game and that couldn't be further from the truth. With bad starting requirements you will lose, but good players realize not to play bad hands and to stay out of the pot when it is likely that you are dominated. When I first went pro I was much more passive on the flop but still managed to turn a hefty profit. I've actually experimented with several playing styles and they all turn a profit, this is because I have the ability to play the flop and later betting rounds well. If you are cold calling with bad or dominated hands this very well could be the worst leak, but this topic isn't about cold calling with dominated hands, it's about how to play your premium and other profitable hands against a raise.

I'm talking about limit, in NL you will cold call a lot more often and use your posistion. In NL you are trying to break people, and this is often done by catching a str8, a set, or an unlikely hand to beat a big pair. Also in posistion you can cold call with almost any hand if your against a real predictable player who raises 2bets with AK but 4bets with AA. If I know he has AK and I have posistion, my cards are pretty irrelevant because I'm taking the pot from him on the flop when he misses his pair 66% of the time.

[senjitsu]

I believe the initial subject of the thread was the guy who asked "why, when people describe their play, do they frequently cite cold calling as such a henious act.

Preflop play is not the most important aspect of the game. However, if you regularly call 2 bets cold with weak, off suit hands that should appropriately be folded, that _is_ a henious leak because you just have so many opportunities to do it. No amount of skill after the flop can recoup those losses... you just dont flop enough big hands.

I would tend to agree that calling when you should be reraising is somewhat less harmful -- you can make your money onlater streets, and the deception you add to your game make up for the players you might knock out and/or the extra bets you might lose.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In limit poker, cold calling probably causes people to lose more money than any other single mistake. It's not just the 2 SB that you put into the pot when cold calling a raise, its the extra bets on later streets you lose when you hit a very good SECOND best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get me wrong, i very rareley cold call, but I strongly disagree with this comment. People seem to think that there preflop play is the most important aspect of there game and that couldn't be further from the truth. With bad starting requirements you will lose, but good players realize not to play bad hands and to stay out of the pot when it is likely that you are dominated. When I first went pro I was much more passive on the flop but still managed to turn a hefty profit. I've actually experimented with several playing styles and they all turn a profit, this is because I have the ability to play the flop and later betting rounds well. If you are cold calling with bad or dominated hands this very well could be the worst leak, but this topic isn't about cold calling with dominated hands, it's about how to play your premium and other profitable hands against a raise.

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[jackfrost]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the initial subject of the thread was the guy who asked "why, when people describe their play, do they frequently cite cold calling as such a henious act.

Preflop play is not the most important aspect of the game. However, if you regularly call 2 bets cold with weak, off suit hands that should appropriately be folded, that _is_ a henious leak because you just have so many opportunities to do it. No amount of skill after the flop can recoup those losses... you just dont flop enough big hands.


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I'm not arguing that people should cold call with AQ, it's a simple muck or 3bet depending on the raising standards of your opponent. If you have any of the troulbe hands it's usually a pretty easy laydown unless your up against a real loose raiser and then you are 3betting. Not one thing I have said has suggested playing trouble hands incorrectly. All i'm trying to say is that cold calling is rarely the correct play, but there are times when not cold calling is a mistake.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are completely forgetting about "floating". I got the term from a Mike I. post but it's been something I've been doing for a little while now without really realizing it.

It's a move that (I think) works better in NL than limit (though there are times where it's applicable to limit), but is powerful against the right opponents. It's pretty much cold-calling a raise against a relatively weak player with the intention of stealing the pot in a later round. You're really just betting on your opponent to miss his hand, and if you call with a hand with big implied odds, you also can make money by hitting your miracle hand and getting your opponent to stack off. So even though your hand itself may not have much equity, if you incorporate your position, fold-equity and implied odds in, it might be profitable to cold-call every once in a while with a junky hand.

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Floating loses alot of effectiveness on many LL tables as you will likely have to go to a showdown to win.

If one is having trouble with why not to coldcall in general, I wouldn't recommend learning about floating yet.

b