Hilger's ITH starting hand charts too tight?

[nomdeplume]

I'm reading Matthew Hilger's book 'Internet Texas Hold'em', and his starting hand charts for early position suggest that one caller is required to call with 88, 77, KJs and QJs. Am I missing something or is this unecessarily tight? I assume the reason is that each of these hands plays better in a multiway pot, and so having an extra caller means that one is less likely to be isolated (and possibly dominated) by a MP or LP raiser.

This is sensible, but doesn't this assume a tight game where most of the players know what they're doing? I thought this book was for new players, and this is an unlikely scenario in most low limit games. He also doesn't recommend playing KQo in early position or KJ in middle position. I know that both of these are marginal at best, but against typical weak players in low limit games are they not worth playing?

In the book I notice that Hilger says that he considers a game with less than 3 players to be 'tight' and a game with more than 3 to be 'loose', so I would assume that he plays mainly in tight, high stakes games. Are the charts more applicable to these games?

Obviously these hands are all marginal in early position, but I'd be interested to hear what people think. Also, has anyone used the charts extensively? If so, what percentage of hands do you play?

[Blarg]

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his starting hand charts for early position suggest that one caller is required to call with 88, 77, KJs and QJs. Am I missing something or is this unecessarily tight? I assume the reason is that each of these hands plays better in a multiway pot, and so having an extra caller means that one is less likely to be isolated

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My take on it is that he wants you to be sure that when you are playing marginal hands, the potential pay-off is there if you hit. Mostly, these hands will lose and are expected to. The reason you call anyway is because of the expected value when a lot of people call.

Say you get someone raising against 88. Heads up, perhaps you will win. But especially if that player raised from early position, you might be facing either a much stronger hand than a pair of 8's or something like AK which has an almost even chance to improve to one. You don't really know, but absent good reads on your opponent, you want to play these mediocre hands for their good potential if you trip up, in which case they become huge favorites. Since they will so often lose, you want to be sure that when you are in a hnad that wins, the pay-off will be great. That's why he wants you to have lots of other people in the pot before you call with this kind of hand.

His book isn't necessarily for new players or low limits at all, though its exceptionally good organization and writing make it ideal for lower limits and new players.

Like most books, you have to adapt. Most books don't count on completely crazy games, and there's really no other way to describe some games. Would you describe someone cold-calling a raise with queen-9 offsuit preflop tight, loose, or just plain crazy? I've seen that kind of thing over and over when I play the low limit games I'm used to.

The only book I've seen that correctly addresses the really crazy games is Ed Miller's Small Stakes Hold'Em book. But it assumes you have a certain amount of poker knowledge and relies on that. Fairly, not unfairly.

Matt Hilger's is the best book I know to get you there. Supplement it with Miller's book and you're seriously golden. But just remember to adapt all the way, think all the way. You just cannot let up for a moment on your thinking about anything. No rule is ever good and no problem is ever solved.

A word about his charts--they're better than Ed's for general play at a wide variety of levels. Start there and expand to include Ed's looseness in your repertoire if your game benefits by it.

Both these books are incredible gifts to slobs like me who wouldn't know their Ace from a hole in the ground. Hilger's can be applied by anyone and will last you well past the lower limits. Miller's can add a lot of refinement to Hilger's ideas and his ideas are key to refining your overall skill as a poker player no matter what limit you are at, but if you apply his ideas by rote and stop thinking, you're in for a world of hurt against better players at even the lowest limits. Hilger's ideas are safer and good for all levels, and can be applied fairly passively. Miller ideas aren't passive in the slightest -- they are the icing on the cake that makes it extra delicious -- but then again, they may throw you into a diabetic coma.

[Beach-Whale]

You might be interested in this thread on Matt's own forum.

Here is an excerpt of what Matt say in the thread:

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- Compared to Sklansky and Jones, I believe I am more specific in terms of number of callers required to play a hand.
- My charts are not designed to be the optimal approach for playing Hold'em. They are designed for beginning/intermediate players. These are the type of players who should actually use charts. This may be one reason for the differences in recommendations. I suspect that if you asked Jones what he recommends for a beginning player, he might be more conservative than what he recommends in his book.
- The optimal approach is to take advantage of every edge which means you can play more starting hands...but only if your post-flop play is good enough to overcome weak hands. My Advanced Concepts chapter recommends playing more hands in certain situations (and less hands in other situations). But beginning/intermediate players will generally hurt themselves more than help themselves by playing more hands.

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Here is another thread by Matt on the subject, and a quote:

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The fact is, there are a lot of borderline decisions in regards to starting hand play that will not make a significant impact on your overall results. Of course, your first goal in Hold'em is to understand basic starting hand play...the charts do this for you. Once you understand this, you will gain a lot more by focusing on your post-flop play than worrying whether 76s is profitable with two callers or three callers.

There is not a lot to gain by playing a few more hands, but there is a lot to lose for beginning players who don't know how to play these borderline hands. Bottomline when starting out, stick to tight preflop play and focus on your post-flop strategy.

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[nomdeplume]

Thanks for your replies and the threads to the ITH forum guys, you've answered my question completely.

Just for the record, I think ITH is the best beginner's book on the market by a LONG way. SSH is nothing short of SUPERB, but I wouldn't class that as a book for beginners.