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  #1  
Old 12-06-2005, 07:05 PM
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Default $50 PLO8, Wrap Broadway Draw, push the flop?

Villian $41.40 - UTG
Hero $100.50 - UTG+2 J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Villian called - $0.50
Hero raised - $2.25 - I'd been raising with a lot of different hands at this table.
Villian raised - $5.75
Hero called - $5.75

** Dealing the flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Villian bet - $10.50
Hero raised - $42.00 - I figure I'm not really screwed unless he's got a set, and even then I'm still in decent shape. I'm putting him on aces, but I had been firing post-flop almost every time I'd raised, so I thought there was a slight chance he might have been trying to take this one away from me.
Villian went all-in - $25.15
Villian shows: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villian wins $80.55 from the main pot

Should I have just called pre-flop, then folded to the raise? Call the reraise then fold the flop (unlikely since I actually have him, slight though it is)? Call the flop then see what the turn brings? Actually, I think I might like that last option best. Any opinions?
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  #2  
Old 12-06-2005, 07:34 PM
MarkD MarkD is offline
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Posts: 492
Default Re: $50 PLO8, Wrap Broadway Draw, push the flop?

I think raising pre-flop is a mistake.

I think I like your flop raise given that if you make your hand there is no possible low. Also, I would think that you have somewhere in the neighborhood of a 14 out straight draw (16 out straight draw but I think he has two aces in his hand) plus a pair which could become trips against an opponent who most likely has aces with a backdoor low draw (exactly what he had). This is the hand that I would put my opponent on in this spot and I would raise the flop just like you did because I would feel as if I had some folding equity (although, maybe not that much) and that my draw was big enough that it might be +EV just on that basis.

Now, here is what two dimes says:
pokenum -o8 as ad 8d 2s - ah qc jc td -- kh js 6c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Js 6c Kh
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As 2s Ad 8d 389 389 431 0 208 0 0 0.493
Qc Jc Td Ah 401 431 389 0 0 0 0 0.507

So, you are about even money on this flop - you have an overlay from the pre-flop betting - and you have some minute folding equity so I like your push even more now.
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  #3  
Old 12-06-2005, 08:22 PM
TGoldman TGoldman is offline
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Location: Bellevue, WA
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Default Re: $50 PLO8, Wrap Broadway Draw, push the flop?

Raising pre-flop with this hand is good for your "Shania", but you said you've been raising a lot of different hands pre-flop already so I don't see any other benefit to the play. Most of the time the flop is going to come low cards and you're not going to like it. Raising pre-flop out of position you're just trashing your own implied odds without any additional deception points.

Other than that, it looks good. I think the most interesting part from these kinds of hands is how much equity AA has post-flop when high cards flop. You have a pair and a huge broadway wrap and all he has is an overpair and a backdoor low draw yet it's still a coin-flip. Anyway, yeah knowing he probably has AA and that you're close to even money in these situations makes your flop raise perfect. You gain a lot of fold equity to win the pot right there otherwise it's a coin flip.

Edit: Was this table heads-up the whole time between you and villain? You didn't mention others folding. Heads-up, a high only hand rates to be > 50% equity so raising is fine. Also, you have position heads-up, my mistake.
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  #4  
Old 12-06-2005, 08:32 PM
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Default Re: $50 PLO8, Wrap Broadway Draw, push the flop?

Sorry, forgot to mention that...There were 5-6 others in the hand, too lazy to check the exact number. I suppose raising was the wrong play, still not quite sure how/what to raise in O8, especially position-wise.
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  #5  
Old 12-06-2005, 09:16 PM
MarkD MarkD is offline
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Default Re: $50 PLO8, Wrap Broadway Draw, push the flop?

5 to 6 others at the table when this hand was dealt or 5-6 others actually in the hand that saw the flop (or put money in pre-flop)?

I was assuming this was a 10 handed table. It is important to note how many players were at the table as hands play differently with fewer opponents.
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  #6  
Old 12-06-2005, 09:17 PM
MarkD MarkD is offline
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Default Re: $50 PLO8, Wrap Broadway Draw, push the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
Heads-up, a high only hand rates to be > 50% equity so raising is fine. Also, you have position heads-up, my mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure about this number? Where did you get it from? I'm curious to find out more about this as I wouldn't know where to begin with head's up O/8 and I want to know.
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  #7  
Old 12-06-2005, 09:34 PM
TGoldman TGoldman is offline
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Default Re: $50 PLO8, Wrap Broadway Draw, push the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heads-up, a high only hand rates to be > 50% equity so raising is fine. Also, you have position heads-up, my mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure about this number? Where did you get it from? I'm curious to find out more about this as I wouldn't know where to begin with head's up O/8 and I want to know.

[/ QUOTE ]
I spouted that off based upon experience without actually running the numbers. After your comment, I ran hero's specific hand using Poker Calculator and it fares ~47% equity heads-up against a random hand. So my original statement was a few points off from being accurate--sorry about that.
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  #8  
Old 12-07-2005, 12:23 AM
DrewOnTilt DrewOnTilt is offline
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Posts: 173
Default Re: $50 PLO8, Wrap Broadway Draw, push the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, forgot to mention that...There were 5-6 others in the hand, too lazy to check the exact number. I suppose raising was the wrong play, still not quite sure how/what to raise in O8, especially position-wise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm having this exact same problem.

According to what I've read, hands such as this are raisable in late position with a number of limpers, indicating that many low-draw type hands are out and the deck is richer in higher cards.

Would a correct line at a typical loose low limit PL table be to limp in EP, limp in LP with only 1-2 limpers, and raise in LP after numerous limpers? Or is raising with this hand generally not correct preflop?

Help?
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  #9  
Old 12-07-2005, 06:15 AM
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Default Re: $50 PLO8, Wrap Broadway Draw, push the flop?

I disagree. Knowing what your opponent have it could be correct, but if he actually has a set you're at least a 40/60 underdog, if he has a two low hands to gi with it you're almost a 30/70 dog. I'd say just call and wait for a good card then get out on the turn if he's betting again. You want lose much, because he probably wont bet the turn unless he's got something (two pair etc) and then he would have called your reraise anyway. I'd also say the preflop raise is a mistake (if not for advertising purpose), what's wrong to have a bunch of limpers hanging in there, you either wanna lay down your hand on the flop (because you don't hit) or get a caller when you actually do hit. Wouldn't you have prefered a bunch of people in this actual scenario? All in 3 or 4 way action wouldn't have hurt, would it?

One last comment. I don't think this play you actual did on the flop gonna make you a winner or a loser in the long run, I mean this isn't really the situation you've been lookin for. It's your opponents play that is horrible. What kind of hand could he expect you to have that puts him in a better position than even money?
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