JJ - standard or weak-tight?

scotty34 · #1 04-25-2005, 05:18 AM

Villain in this hand is a rock. 14/6 through ~100 hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 3 folds, MP2 3-bets, 2 folds, Button calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

 I thought about capping this, but given my read on villain, I figured TT-AA, AK, or AQs. 

Flop: (10.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button calls, Hero calls.

Well that A on the flop was the one card that I certainly did not want to see. The only hand that I think villain could have that I'm beating is TT. If he has QQ or KK, I really don't think he will be folding. I thought about just check/folding this flop, but that just seemed too weak.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button folds, Hero folds.

No help here on the turn. I'm no longer getting even close to the odds to call anything here. 

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

While playing this hand, I felt like I was extremely weak, but after reviewing it, it doesn't seem too bad. Anyone play it differently?

uw_madtown · #2 04-25-2005, 05:24 AM

I cap pre-flop, hand plays differently from there.

If you're going to call the flop, I think you have to call that turn and a non-K/Q river.

New001 · #3 04-25-2005, 05:25 AM

If you're going to fold the turn UI, why not fold the flop?

Edit: I'd cap PF, but played as you did, I'd probably check/call the flop and turn and bet/fold the river or check/call the river.

scotty34 · #4 04-25-2005, 05:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I cap pre-flop, hand plays differently from there.

If you're going to call the flop, I think you have to call that turn and a non-K/Q river.

[/ QUOTE ]

And pray for TT? I called the flop based on my two outs to a set and the backdoor flush draw. Neither hit the turn. I really don't think I'm ahead here. Why call?

New001 · #5 04-25-2005, 05:29 AM

2 outs to the set and the backdoor isn't really enough to continue if you think you're behind with that pot, especially when you figure in those outs might not be all clean (the flush, especially). If you think you're behind, I'd fold the flop.

scotty34 · #6 04-25-2005, 05:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to fold the turn UI, why not fold the flop?

Edit: I'd cap PF, but played as you did, I'd probably check/call the flop and turn and bet/fold the river or check/call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I called the flop based on my 2 outs to a set, and I'll say ~1.5 outs for the backdoor flush draw. I'm getting 12.5:1 on my call with two opponents. I think this is reasonable, no? On the turn I'm only getting 7.75:1 and my BDFD is gone.

scotty34 · #7 04-25-2005, 05:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
2 outs to the set and the backdoor isn't really enough to continue if you think you're behind with that pot, especially when you figure in those outs might not be all clean (the flush, especially). If you think you're behind, I'd fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The J's are surely clean unless he has AA, in which case I was totally screwed from the start. With only two players in the hand, and only two possible flush cards that can beat mine, I think I can give it a reasonable amount of credit.

New001 · #8 04-25-2005, 05:35 AM

If he has Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Qx or K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Kx you're drawing to 2 outs. If he has an Ace, you're drawing to, at best, 2 for the set and another 1 for the flush. He could also have AxK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or AxQ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Banking on the flush being good if you hit is dangerous.

scotty34 · #9 04-25-2005, 05:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If he has Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Qx or K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Kx you're drawing to 2 outs. If he has an Ace, you're drawing to, at best, 2 for the set and another 1 for the flush. He could also have AxK[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or AxQ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Banking on the flush being good if you hit is dangerous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I say the chance of AxQ [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is very small given that he 3-bet me PF. I could only see him doing this with AQs, not AQo. AxK [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is possible I suppose, and so are the QQ/KK with a spade, but fearing these hands just because they are 'possible' I think is too weak. If I hit my flush, it would be good far more often than not IMO.

New001 · #10 04-25-2005, 05:44 AM

If you're going to give him credit for Ax, AA, KK, or QQ right now, then you have to consider that there's a definitely possibility he has a higher [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].