T.J. Cloutier's "No need to bet to know" concept...

[Kirkrrr]

I finally got around to reading TJ's and Tom McEvoy "Champ. NL & PL HE." Overall, excellent book but there's one concept he discusses that I think it highly questionable (at least for us less than touched by God players here), namely:

[ QUOTE ]
There are many times when you will check... a hand because you want to find out where you are. Any time that you hear somebody say, "I made a bet to find out where I was," you know that person is making a bad play, b/c it is foolish to put money into a pot to find out where you are. You should be observant enough and play well enough to find out without having to put money in the pot."

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious how many out there agree/disagree with that one. My own personal opinion is that for a "normal" player that ~can't~ sit down and know everyone's betting tendencies in every position within the first 15 mins of the game, betting for information is mandatory. But if there are better ways, I'd love to know about them.

Kirk R.

[BarronVangorToth]

I believe that it is possible to know exactly where you are without putting dime one into the pot.

Call it whatever you want -- my friends call it The Song -- but I believe it.

However, I likewise believe that almost no one on the planet can do this (hear The Song) with any degree of frequency.

In short: good theory, not good in practice, sorry, TJ.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

[DBowling]

As far as no limit is concerned, id tend to agree. Lets say you are betting your middle pair to find out where youre at. If you get raised, you know youre behind (waste of your initial bet). If you get called, you dont really gain a lot of information, especially at a new table where you havent learned the others tendencies. A call may indicate many things from a slow play to a draw to top pair bad kicker.

[dogmeat]

If you are new to a game, how much is "information" worth to you?

Suppose you visit Las Vegas and sit down in a small NL game with a $2 and $5 blind. You buy a rack of red ($500) and match what most of the players have. There is a standard raise of about $20 and three callers, one of which is you. The pot is just under $100. You hold 88. Flop comes 7 Q 4 with two to a suit. Do you bet $35 at this to see where you are? If you bet less, it will be seen as a weak bet and somebody might raise it to $100. If you bet more, you are asking somebody with a larger PP or a queen to take your money. What to do?

There is no rule that you need to risk any money except your blinds when you first sit at a table. If you jump into the first hand you see, you deserve what you get. It's alright at limit, because you won't lose much if you are wrong. You need to know your players. Sit and watch unless you get superior hands. Learn.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[corvettejoe]

I agree with dogmeat, to many times i see individuals sit right down and start playing with no idea of who they are playing against and get involved too deep to fast. A "ffeler" bet in limit on the surface appears to be good, but with all the looseness at the tables today and all the riverats, I ask "what does it really tell you". A few years ago I would agree that a small bet to see where you were was a good thing, but today I think in "most" cases its useless. Beeter to know your table then to guess at what people will be chasing.

[phish]

Betting for information is valid sometimes. But people use that phrase 'I bet to find out where I'm at' way too often and in the most inappropriate situations. It usually is just a excuse for an embarassed bad bet.

[mrjetguy]

Unless I know a player's tells or betting patterns very well a bet is the best way for me to establish what someone has. If I check to someone then there are too many possibilities that aare all fairly likely.

[Kopefire]

I think most mediocre players can get a sense of the table enough to know if they should play a moderately good hand or not. And that sense should be listened too.

There will be times that you have an ok, but possibly dominated hand that you decide, quite correctly, to play. You evaluate everything and bet into the pot and watch what happens. If it goes one way you keep on playing, if it goes the other, you fold.

Now, did you make the bet "to see where you were at?" no. You made the bet because you had a hand that was marginally playable and you decided to play it. Now, you have more information from making that play and you can decide what to do now. The reason for the bet is that it was the right decission at the time with all the information you had available. The side-effect was that you received more information to base current and future decissions off of.

You should never just bet "to find out" what's what. You should know what's what up front (I'm sitting on middle pair with an ok kicker and the flop is 2 suited). And you should act on that information (this is an iffy hand, but the table's been running loose-passive solidly for an hour, I'm going to play it for one bet because if I check it'll likely just check around and there'll be no money in the pot, and it's good enough that a fold is probably premature). And then you act on the information you have the next time you are to act (it was raised four times and now i have to cold call the cap to continue .. hmmm I think I'll fold now).

I think it's a perspective thing -- you don't bet to gain information. You gain information as a result of betting, but that's not the reason you bet. You bet because you have a hand that you can bet with and you decided to do so.

[Vince Lepore]

"you know that person is making a bad play, b/c it is foolish to put money into a pot to find out where you are"

Suppose you are playing limit Holdem. You are in the big blind. You hold Td,8s. 3 players limp in and the sb calls making 5 people that see the flop.

The flop comes Jc,8d,7d. Where are you? If you don't know how do you find out? If you check and the button bets where are you? How do you find out? TJ does not know of what he speaks. There is a concept that goes something like this, "one reason to bet or raise is to gain information." If you believe that this is a valid concept as I do then you know that when you make a play to gain informatio you are in most case trying to find out where you are. As I pointed out in my second observation be careful who you listen too. Make sure the person is an expert and not some famous tournament player. Tournament poker is not real poker.

Vince [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[dogmeat]

Vince, the more you speak, the less I guess I will listen. TJ would take every dime you have in a game. As for your reading skills:

The post was based on TJ's book NL and Pot Limit - not LIMIT. At least read the GD post before answering with your crap. Oh, but your other advice is good: Make sure you listen to an expert - should we listen to you, or TJ?
Oh yeah, welcome back.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]