I know I blew it, my question is how badly

shandrakor · #1 01-13-2004, 02:42 AM

Played in the $3 rebuy satellite to the $215 on stars this evening, and with a little side-coaching by Lori that pretty much confirmed what I already thought was the right play, was trying to sit my way into the money.

People tightened up as we got close though, and by the time this happened, 9 people out of 30 still had to leave before I got my money. I decided I wasn't going to be able to just wait it out, and this was a hand good enough to top off the stack.

POKERSTARS GAME #243424104: TOURNAMENT #805382, HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL XVI (4000/8000) - 2004/01/13 - 01:06:51 (ET)
Table '805382 64' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 (34341 in chips)
Seat 2: Player2 (31200 in chips)
Seat 3: Player3 (48632 in chips)
Seat 4: Player4 (89941 in chips)
Seat 5: evilshandie (45074 in chips)
Seat 6: Player6 (31980 in chips)
Seat 7: Player7 (40526 in chips)
Seat 8: Player8 (199394 in chips)
Seat 9: Player9 (63102 in chips) is sitting out
everybody posts the ante 400

evilshandie: posts small blind 4000
Player6: posts big blind 8000

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to evilshandie [Jd Jc]
Player7: folds
Player8: folds
Player9: folds
Player1: raises 8000 to 16000
Player2: folds
Player3: folds
Player4: folds
evilshandie: calls 12000
Player6: folds

*** FLOP *** [8s 3d Ad]
evilshandie: bets 10000
Player1: raises 7941 to 17941 and is all-in
evilshandie: calls 7941

*** TURN *** [8s 3d Ad] [As]
*** RIVER *** [8s 3d Ad As] [3c]

*** SHOW DOWN ***
evilshandie: shows [Jd Jc] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
Player1: shows [Ks Ac] (a full house, Aces full of Threes)
Player1 collected 79482 from pot

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 79482 | Rake 0
Board [8s 3d Ad As 3c]
Seat 1: Player1 showed [Ks Ac] and won (79482) with a full house, Aces full of Threes
Seat 2: Player2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Player3 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Player4 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: evilshandie (small blind) showed [Jd Jc] and lost with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 6: Player6 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: Player7 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Player8 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Player9 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

So, the first question, I suppose is: did I screw up from the very start? Should I have tried to just fold my way to the end, or at least wait for a better hand? Looking at the fact that the game is still undecided, I'm pretty positive I couldn't have slacked in from where I was.

More importantly, even though I had Jacks, it was vs. a mid-position raise. It felt good then, and I don't have an honest read on it anymore, seeing as it lead to me getting knocked out 3 people off the bubble.

I'm thinking that the right answer was to either call, as I did, or PF reraise, folding to an all-in bet. Then, after the A dropped on the flop, check-fold instead of betting.

Let's not even talk about my calling the last 8k, shall we?

What does everyone else think?

shandrakor · #2 01-13-2004, 03:28 AM

Wait - that's not quite correct. There weren't 30 people left, there were 27, and had been for quite some time. The ten minutes or so without anyone going out was part of what drove me to make a play. Additionally, 22nd place paid out a respectable sum as well. So, only 5 people needed to be eliminated, not 9.

Having calmed down now, I'm pretty confident that I shouldn't have touched that pot.

Gotmilk · #3 01-13-2004, 03:30 AM

It's hard to say without a chip count of the other players or knowing what place you were in. What is certain though is that your opponent is pot commited having put in 16k of their 29k so you are going to have to finish with the better hand, you will not be able to bet them off their hand even if they don't hit an Ace or a King most likely.

From your chip situation it sounds like you are reasonably safe, i.e. you need to pick up a few rounds of blinds here or there, you don't neccesarily need to win a hand vs. someone else. This means your goal should be to make some big raises of your own where you don't have to worry so much as ending up with the best hand, making mucking the jacks an attractive option (I kind of worry by your opponents minimum raise that he _wants_ action, though he should certainly have gone all-in with AK. I never know what goes through people's minds sometimes).

One thing that is for sure, if you are going to lose all your chips if an Ace or King flops, you should go all-in before the flop in my opinion. The only reason to flat call is to save those extra 17,000 chips so you can fold if an Ace flops. I think you should probably just fold before the flop and wait til you are desperate until you play a hand where you know for sure there will be a showdown.

That said, if it was going to take doubling up at some point to finish in the money, there probably isn't a much better time than there. I just get the sense that your were safe for the time being and there was no immediate reason to put all your chips in without AA or KK.

So unless you were 100% sure you had to win a hand at some point other than just the blinds, probably a fold is correct.

shandrakor · #4 01-13-2004, 03:36 AM

There were only two other tables, and while I can't say for certain, I'm pretty confident they had a similar chip distribution to my table.

crockpot · #5 01-13-2004, 05:06 AM

the way you played this hand doesn't make much sense. if you're going to play, there is no reason to flat call. unless the raiser doesn't even have an overcard to your jacks, you would prefer that he fold to your reraise than call. meanwhile, if he has a weak raising hand, you may be giving him free cards to catch up to you. so even if he has a light raising hand, you would prefer to raise now than to wait and suck him in.

folding and going all-in are both reasonable options here. it depends on a few factors: how many small stacks there were at the other tables, how many chances people were taking, etc. the ante is a big factor here. it means you will be blinded out much faster than with no ante, and significantly improves your pot odds if you go all-in here.

i wouldn't even consider a call here, however.

Stagemusic · #6 01-13-2004, 08:56 AM

I agree with the others in this particular situation. Your pre-flop play was fine but once the overcard hit I would have check-folded to the all in. I am not sure that you are right that you would have had to double your stack to insure yourself a money spot with you in the 4th chip position on your table. As you said everyone had really tightened up, I would have been wary of betting out after seeing his raise pre-flop. I have to put him on AA, QQ, KK, or AK...all of which beat me. In a bubble situation and with the blinds taking 25% of my stack in each round though it's a tough fold when you see that medium/high pair in your hand. Easy to say with 20/20 hindsight though. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]