turn donk by a suspected TAG

jt1 · #1 12-18-2005, 10:13 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4.16 BB

UncleSalty · #2 12-18-2005, 10:17 PM

Looks fine because the pot is small. If the pot was bigger you have to account for the possibility that he's betting a draw and call it down.

milesdyson · #3 12-18-2005, 10:23 PM

when i put myself into his shoes and try to imagine what i'd play like this, i can't imagine a single hand.

you would expect more aggression from a flopped flush draw or a 9, and what kind of K high does he have that he check called on the flop? would he really check call K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]/similar on this flop?

so i'm confused.

Roy6 · #4 12-18-2005, 10:33 PM

I think he has the K here a lot. He might be afraid you check through and suck out with your club. Plus you might calldown your pairs figuring he's on a bluff.

UncleSalty · #5 12-18-2005, 10:33 PM

Miles,

I agree that it's a confusing hand. However at 3/6 it seems likely that Kx is a big part of his blind defense range and we don't have any read indicating he will do this with a draw. Given we have one of the nines, it's unlikely he holds one, and I agree that we would have seen more flop aggression if he held one. I'm guessing that other than an A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] flush draw, he's gotta be on a Kx or slowplayed 6.

In any event, we're getting 4:1 immediate odds and 5:2 implied odds if we're behind, so I think it's a fold in a small pot.

jt1 · #6 12-18-2005, 10:34 PM

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so i'm confused.

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So was I, but the pot was too small to challenge him. FWIW, I thought he had trips.

wheelz · #7 12-18-2005, 10:35 PM

he probably wouldn't play a 6 or 9 like this, and a K is possible but also doesn't seem that likely. i've used this line in similar situations as a pure bluff, and if he's a suspected TAG, a bluff seems quite possible here. so does a non paired hand with a club. it's really tough to say without a read, but i'm struggling to give him credit for a better hand after he takes that line, even though the pot is small. i'd raise for a free showdown and fold if he 3-bets. he shouldn't 3-bet without a better hand, he might not even 3-bet with a K, you charge him to draw at a club, and he might even fold outright if he is bluffing, so you don't let him hit an overcard or something on the river.

i may be giving this guy too much credit though and he just doesn't want the turn to check through now that he hit his K.

jt1 · #8 12-18-2005, 10:41 PM

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i've used this line in similar situations as a pure bluff,

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But would you just call the flop bet? I think most TAGS would rather check raise or donk the flop with a playable hand than just call it planning or hoping for chance to donk the turn.

UncleSalty · #9 12-18-2005, 10:41 PM

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he probably wouldn't play a 6 or 9 like this, and a K is possible but also doesn't seem that likely.

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I disagree with you 100%. He would definitely play a 6 like this, although the only possible blind defense hands involving a 6 would be 4/6, 5/6, 7/6, 9/6, or A/6 and these all make a very small percent of his possible range. His flop play and our holding definitely make a 9 a very unlikely holding as well, which leaves the Kings.

What makes you think a K is so unlikely? IMO Kings are a decent percent of his possible range. A TAG would certainly donk bet this turn w/ a K to charge aces that missed the flop.

Again, I think the pot is too small to argue for a call, but I think it's an interesting discussion nonetheless.

wheelz · #10 12-18-2005, 10:44 PM

i'm not saying those are impossible holdings. in the games i play i'd never see a 6 or K played like this. i could be wrong here.