Who is your hero?

[utmt40]

My hero would have to be Michael Jordan.

[ilya]

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For a long time I had no heroes but right now I think I have two, Bill Gates and Ingrid Newkirk (the co-founder & director of PETA).

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The same Ingrid Newkirk who complained to Yasser Arafat about a the fact a donkey got killed in a terrorist attack which killed people as well.
Who said that the winner of the Indy 500 drinking milk was mocking cows
Who want's to get eaten when she dies
Who believes that the yearly slaughter of chickens is comprable to the
holocaust.

Good Choice

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I don't really want to get into a fight about this. I agree that she has made many melodramatic and counterproductive pronouncements. However, I believe that many of these pronouncements (for example the equation of the Holocaust with factory farming) would not seem anywhere near as outrageous to you or many other reasonable people if you had as complete an understanding of the depth and extent of animal exploitation as she does. Furthermore, I have a lot of respect for the sincerity, seriousness, and longevity of her commitment in the face of persistent public scepticism & apathy & the concerted efforts of powerful business interests to discredit & ridicule her effors. Finally, I have found her uncommonly generous & gracious in her personal relationships.

[Blarg]

Judging Hefner as an actor seems like a really weird criterion.

What new idea isn't he into that you can't seem to forgive him for? Is it hip hop or rap or something? I'm at a loss as to how some old dude just liking what he likes, like most everyone does and old dudes completely specialize in, could be something remarkable or something that makes it practically sound like it sparked a grudge.

You really haven't been able to make it clear why you're so hard against him.

[JihadOnTheRiver]

Good question. My dad, #1, Ronald Reagan, #2.

[Blarg]

I'm very sure you're completely right regarding the lack of knowledge most people have of what the conditions of factory farming are really like. But as true as that is, it just doesn't matter a whit. There's the part others may be missing, but that last is the critical part, and you're the one that's missing it when you rationalize comparing factory farming to the Holocaust.

Frankly, I think how we treat people is on a whole other, and much more serious still, moral level than how we treat dogs or chickens or cows.

That has nothing to do with being an animal lover.

There's just a thing about getting morally glaringly, even ridiculously, out of balance.

[Skipbidder]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For a long time I had no heroes but right now I think I have two, Bill Gates and Ingrid Newkirk (the co-founder & director of PETA).

[/ QUOTE ]

The same Ingrid Newkirk who complained to Yasser Arafat about a the fact a donkey got killed in a terrorist attack which killed people as well.
Who said that the winner of the Indy 500 drinking milk was mocking cows
Who want's to get eaten when she dies
Who believes that the yearly slaughter of chickens is comprable to the
holocaust.

Good Choice

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really want to get into a fight about this. I agree that she has made many melodramatic and counterproductive pronouncements. However, I believe that many of these pronouncements (for example the equation of the Holocaust with factory farming) would not seem anywhere near as outrageous to you or many other reasonable people if you had as complete an understanding of the depth and extent of animal exploitation as she does. Furthermore, I have a lot of respect for the sincerity, seriousness, and longevity of her commitment in the face of persistent public scepticism & apathy & the concerted efforts of powerful business interests to discredit & ridicule her effors. Finally, I have found her uncommonly generous & gracious in her personal relationships.

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It doesn't take much effort to ridicule her.

She opposes pet ownership as slavery, yet wrote multiple books about cat ownership.

This is the same Ingrid Newkirk who opposes any medical research on animals but uses insulin herself, which would not be possible without the use of animals.

This is the same Ingrid Newkirk who opposes even the use of guide dogs for the blind.

This woman is one of the biggest hypocrites in the world today.

You don't get to say that you don't want to fight about this and then continue to defend your position.

It particularly irritates me that she supplies ammunition to my political opponents. (As if right-wing nutjobs need any help right now.) She damages more reasonable animal welfare positions by allowing them to be lumped in with PETA insanity.

[astroglide]

it has absolutely nothing to do with actors or acting. tony montana is a pop culture celebrity. hugh hefner is a pop culture celebrity. i don't know how the 'acting' idea ever came into this.

it is a waste to put effort into explaning something against comments like "you really haven't been able to make it clear." there are 2 parts to communication, and one of them is listening. if you were honestly just trying to see my perspective you would say "i don't understand" rather than phrasing it in the form of a challenge like "you are doing a bad job of making me understand." it's not my goal to make you dislike hugh hefner. i don't care if you do. i was just expressing an opinion.

[ilya]

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I'm very sure you're completely right regarding the lack of knowledge most people have of what the conditions of factory farming are really like. But as true as that is, it just doesn't matter a whit. There's the part others may be missing, but that last is the critical part, and you're the one that's missing it when you rationalize comparing factory farming to the Holocaust.

Frankly, I think how we treat people is on a whole other, and much more serious still, moral level than how we treat dogs or chickens or cows.

That has nothing to do with being an animal lover.

There's just a thing about getting morally glaringly, even ridiculously, out of balance.

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I disagree with this world view vehemently and think it is founded on unwarranted, selfish assumptions...but I think it would be best if we agreed to disagree. I simply do not have the time or the intellectual energy to spare in my life right now to carry on this discussion on as serious a level as I think it deserves.

Also, these issues really make my blood boil, and I don't trust myself not to say something I will regret.

[Blarg]

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it has absolutely nothing to do with actors or acting. tony montana is a pop culture celebrity. hugh hefner is a pop culture celebrity. i don't know how the 'acting' idea ever came into this.

it is a waste to put effort into explaning something against comments like "you really haven't been able to make it clear." there are 2 parts to communication, and one of them is listening. if you were honestly just trying to see my perspective you would say "i don't understand" rather than phrasing it in the form of a challenge like "you are doing a bad job of making me understand." it's not my goal to make you dislike hugh hefner. i don't care if you do. i was just expressing an opinion.

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Okay this is just cheaping out on me completely. For shame, and it's time to move on.

[Blarg]

That's fine, but don't take it as an insult if I tell you sight unseen that I value your life, or anyone's, more than I do that of a chicken.