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  #1  
Old 12-13-2005, 05:47 PM
BadBatsuMaru BadBatsuMaru is offline
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Default passive play in passive games, rakes, and the current state of 2/4 BBJ

For reference:

my stats from 23K 2/4 BBJ hands

my original thread which was locked

my thread whining about locked threads which was turning into a good thread with an OT title

Evan's thread about blind stealing that shant referenced

My basic 2/4 BBJ stats are:

17.53% VP$IP, 5.09% PFR
2.4 flop / 2.4 turn / 1.8 river aggression

Notice my blind steal attempts are a pathetic 15%, but also notice that I am only in stealing position on 2.7% of hands because of game selection, and of the 94 steal attempts I have made, NONE have won without a flop.

I've made 2.16 BB/100 over those 22,983 hands, and pots I've won have been raked for $2,113.50, which is 2.30 BB/100 rake.

So, obviously my play is pretty weak/tight, but I'm wondering if that may be correct given my game selection. With 2.3 BB/100 going to the rake, I have a feeling that I pretty much need to find tables with VP$IP over 30% (really looking for 35%) and preferably an average PFR under 5% where I can stay out of marginal situations entirely and my big hands are going to be paid off.

The rake structure for 2/4 BBJ is:
$20 pot = $1.00 regular + $0.5 JP = $1.50 rake = 7.50%
$30 pot = $1.50 regular + $0.5 JP = $2.00 rake = 6.67%
$40 pot = $2.00 regular + $0.5 JP = $2.50 rake = 6.25%
$50 pot = $2.50 regular + $0.5 JP = $3.00 rake = 6.00%
$60 pot = $3.00 regular + $0.5 JP = $3.50 rake = 5.83%

The average pots are usually in the $25 range, which gives you a little over 6.0% average rake.

Mack848 and Jake were suggesting that I should steal more and raise to isolate more. The only time I've really been able to isolate successfully in these games, though, is when I'm sitting to the left of an uber-LAG. That is, if I re-raise, I can actually isolate people to some degree with the pre-flop 3-bet. Much more common, though, is the weak limper. If some guy with a 50% VP$IP limps from MP2, he's probably got some trash like T7s, and then I look down at QJs in MP3, and I should raise, but then I look and the guy on the button is even fishier and is going to cold-call with his K8o no matter what, then of course the SB will call if he's sooted and the BB will call with any 2 cards, so is this still a good time to raise? Is it incorrect to go into "see the flop cheaply" mode when you can't isolate? Should I be raising for value here?

Now, if it's possible for me to win more small pots, keeping them under $20 without a rake, that's definitely good, but I fear that excessive raising would mostly be limiting the field to 2-3 opponents and the pot would often just barely break $20 where you get the worst possible rake.

Also, I'm wondering how many other people frequently play 2/4 BBJ. The games seem to be getting pretty sharky, so there have to be some 2+2ers in there. Two nights ago the JP was up to $380K and there were still very few tables over 30% VP$IP, and most of the ones that were also had an avg PFR of around 10%. I think things used to be a lot more fishy, especially whenever the JP was over $150K.
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  #2  
Old 12-13-2005, 06:09 PM
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Default Re: passive play in passive games, rakes, and the current state of 2/4

To learn more about when to isolate someone and when not to here are a few references
Poker Essays 1 by Mason Malmuth, page 39
HPFAP, pages 33-35.
From my veiw point, if a raise is unlikely to get me heads up with the lone limper, I tighten up my raising range significanly.
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  #3  
Old 12-13-2005, 06:12 PM
mack848 mack848 is offline
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Default Re: passive play in passive games, rakes, and the current state of 2/4

It really seems to me that you are taking part in these games predominantly for the chance of hitting the jackpot.

From what I have seen/heard, the gamblers who play these jackpot games make them nearer to those found at $0.50/$1 or $1/$2. I can see how early isolation raises are of lower value, but I also believe that raising for value with a wider range of hands to 'normal' must be profitable - given the crap that these guys will limp with.

If the rake truly is 2.3BB/100, I would say that you will need to play very well to match that in win rate.
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:01 PM
Harv72b Harv72b is offline
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Default Re: passive play in passive games, rakes, and the current state of 2/4 BBJ

A 5.09% PFR isn't just hesitating to isolate because of the futility of the move, nor is it not being able to attempt steals because too many players are limping and the blinds never fold. It's simply limping with way too many hands. I'd wager that you are routinely limping with hands like TT-99, AJo, ATs, KQo, KJs, etc, and that's bad. If your opponents are going to make mistakes by calling your raises with suited crap, great--that's going to make you more money. Yes, you're going to get sucked out on often and you'll have to work hard on your postflop play (especially playing out of position), but those are the kinds of things you need to do in order to improve your game (and, ultimately, your win rate). Heck, even relatively passive 2+2'ers who rarely if ever blind steal still end up with PFRs in the 7-8 range. Make no mistakes about it: this is a significant leak in the kinds of games you're playing.

Other than that, considering the games you're playing, your stats look pretty respectable. But you just can't allow yourself to get into a mentality of "what's the use of raising, since they'll call anyway?". Remember, you want them to call with dominated hands or other weak holdings.

I didn't read through your entire "locked threads" thread, but I suspect that part of the reason your initial thread was locked was because it contained the screenname, general stats, and overall results for another player--that's a pretty big breach of etiquette on here (and admittedly, I don't think it's mentioned in either of the stickied threads; we need to fix that).

I don't personally play the BBJ tables very often. Sometimes if I'm in a good mood and the jackpot is pretty big I'll play a table or two there, but for the most part I stick with the normal party games. I'm not sure if anyone has succeeded (or even tried) in full-timing the BBJ tables with a good win rate, but if anyone has, I'm not aware of it. It's no doubt possible, but I would think that the same player could do just as well if not better with the improved table selection available in the normal limits.
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  #5  
Old 12-13-2005, 07:41 PM
BadBatsuMaru BadBatsuMaru is offline
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Default Re: passive play in passive games, rakes, and the current state of 2/4

[ QUOTE ]
It really seems to me that you are taking part in these games predominantly for the chance of hitting the jackpot.

From what I have seen/heard, the gamblers who play these jackpot games make them nearer to those found at $0.50/$1 or $1/$2. I can see how early isolation raises are of lower value, but I also believe that raising for value with a wider range of hands to 'normal' must be profitable - given the crap that these guys will limp with.

If the rake truly is 2.3BB/100, I would say that you will need to play very well to match that in win rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm taking part in the games because the gamblers who play these jackpot games make them nearer to those found at $0.50/$1 or $1/$2. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I've been beating the rake for 2.16BB/100.
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  #6  
Old 12-13-2005, 07:54 PM
BadBatsuMaru BadBatsuMaru is offline
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Default Re: passive play in passive games, rakes, and the current state of 2/4

[ QUOTE ]
But you just can't allow yourself to get into a mentality of "what's the use of raising, since they'll call anyway?". Remember, you want them to call with dominated hands or other weak holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure you're absolutely correct there. For example, with TT, I raise from later position just because I have position and if there are a bunch of limpers I have value for my set, but I do have trouble with JJ/TT in the first two seats. I think it was HPFAP which specifically addressed the fact that the worst possible thing that can happen with JJ/TT is when you raise early and get 3 callers, then you're playing a 4-way pot out of position, you don't have the right odds to hit your set, and you have to be afraid of a single overcard. And I seem to remember Ed Miller saying not to raise with AJo in early position, although I'm not quite sure I like limping with much in early position because the whole point is limiting the field when you have big cards. And I forget which book it was that said if AJo isn't profitable from early position, you need to find a new game.
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  #7  
Old 12-14-2005, 06:02 AM
mack848 mack848 is offline
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Default Re: passive play in passive games, rakes, and the current state of 2/4

[ QUOTE ]
For example, with TT, I raise from later position just because I have position and if there are a bunch of limpers I have value for my set, but I do have trouble with JJ/TT in the first two seats. I think it was HPFAP which specifically addressed the fact that the worst possible thing that can happen with JJ/TT is when you raise early and get 3 callers, then you're playing a 4-way pot out of position, you don't have the right odds to hit your set, and you have to be afraid of a single overcard. And I seem to remember Ed Miller saying not to raise with AJo in early position, although I'm not quite sure I like limping with much in early position because the whole point is limiting the field when you have big cards. And I forget which book it was that said if AJo isn't profitable from early position, you need to find a new game.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had to guess on the range of hands that the average, good, 2+2'er raises UTG in a Small stakes game, it would be:

99+, ATs+, ATo+, KQs, KQo.

Why not try adding some of these to your game and see how you get on? I win with them UTG and I can't claim to be a 'good 2+2'er'.

Raising ATo, KQo and 99 UTG are up for debate, raising AJ, KQs and TT shouldn't be IMO.

Mack
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  #8  
Old 12-14-2005, 08:22 AM
Webster Webster is offline
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Default Re: passive play in passive games, rakes, and the current state of 2/4

If you used Millers Starting hand charts you should be raising about 8% of the time. Add ALWAYS raising if 1st in will get you 3 or 4% more.

Stealing is site dependent. I steal at Crypto almost 40% and that is a GREAT place to play (don't let the pre flop numbers fool you into think they are good - it's not like Poker Stars) of the time and win 70% - but at Party I back off more because they defend more.

What is BBJ ???

Plus - I HOPE yo are not complaining about a >2BB/100

OH - jackpot - get off those tables! it's -EV.
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  #9  
Old 12-14-2005, 11:05 AM
ErrantNight ErrantNight is offline
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Default Re: passive play in passive games, rakes, and the current state of 2/4

i'd add KJs, KJo, 88
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  #10  
Old 12-14-2005, 12:22 PM
mack848 mack848 is offline
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Default Re: passive play in passive games, rakes, and the current state of 2/4

You raise KJo UTG in a standard Small Stakes Party game?
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