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  #1  
Old 12-30-2003, 12:39 AM
Sarge85 Sarge85 is offline
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Default Just a bad beat right?

Party .50/1.00

Don't think I did anything incorrect here, but I'd like to know if there was anything I should have done differently.

I'm on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

2 Limpers to me, I raise, both blind calls.

Flop A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to me I bet, SB calls, BB Check Raises, LP calls, I re-raise all call.

Turn K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Check to LP who comes alive and bets. I raise we loose one others just call

River 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Check to LP who bets. I just call (not sure what BB has)

Comments?
LP turns over K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
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  #2  
Old 12-30-2003, 01:29 AM
Tosh Tosh is offline
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Default Re: Just a bad beat right?

I think you played fine. I wouldn't call it a bad beat though, he made a poor pf call but did flop the nut flush draw.
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  #3  
Old 12-30-2003, 01:37 AM
Sarge85 Sarge85 is offline
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Default Re: Just a bad beat right?

He called 2 cold on the flop... I'm not an odds guy, but doesnt this wreck his pot odds for calling here.

I generally won't call two in this situation, if I'm him...am I wrong?
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  #4  
Old 12-30-2003, 07:22 AM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
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Default Re: Just a bad beat right?

I generally won't call two in this situation, if I'm him...am I wrong?

Very wrong. If you flop a four flush, you should see the river with it over 95% of the time. Throwing away flush draws will cost you some pretty big money.
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  #5  
Old 12-30-2003, 08:38 AM
crockpot crockpot is offline
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Default Re: Just a bad beat right?

when it gets to him, there are 14 small bets in the pot, and two people will almost surely call behind him making it 16. it costs him 2 bets to call, 7:1 current odds and probably better if two call behind him. even in the worst-case scenario where you reraise, SB folds and BB caps, he will still get 19:4, better than the 4.1:1 he needs to call with the nut flush draw.

if you automatically fold a four flush for two cold bets on the flop, you aren't correctly incorporating the size of the pot into how you play a hand. of course, it helps that he is drawing to the nuts; i might fold a very low flush draw here. i have an essay on considering the pot size at my website, and Mason Malmuth has written some excellent stuff on it in his Poker Essays books. you should know to always consider the odds you're getting, especially with a drawing hand.
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  #6  
Old 12-30-2003, 12:03 PM
Sarge85 Sarge85 is offline
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Default My Confidence is Shaken

My confidence is shaken.....

I check-raised the flop to, as the mantra goes, to charge as much for the flush draw as possible.

Now if I'm not able to manipulate the odds enough to get those draws to fold, should I back off?

BTW - Was Checking-raising here "status-quo" or do should I just bet out?
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  #7  
Old 12-30-2003, 02:12 PM
pudley4 pudley4 is offline
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Default Re: My Confidence is Shaken

These two things (charging the draws the max and them calling) are not mutually exclusive. Making him call 2 bets on the flop does cut down his odds, but doesn't cut them down enough to make him incorrect in calling.

You played it perfectly.

LP played it ok - his initial preflop limp was slightly loose, but he has to call the single raise back to him. Then he flops the 4-flush, so he's in to the river.

PS You didn't check-raise the flop, you (correctly) bet and 3-bet it.
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  #8  
Old 12-30-2003, 02:21 PM
ramjam ramjam is offline
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Default Re: My Confidence is Shaken

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I check-raised the flop to, as the mantra goes, to charge as much for the flush draw as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

You bet and 3-bet, not check-raised.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Now if I'm not able to manipulate the odds enough to get those draws to fold, should I back off?

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally, no. If you were HU with the flush draw, you would be about 2/1 on to win the hand - therefore, although the pot is big enough for the draw to have odds to call you, you make about a 1/3 profit on every dollar you put into the pot. Multiway, you're still the relative favourite to win the hand and should be putting money in on the same principle - but if there are two or more other parties calling, the flush draw will also be making money (but making it from those with top-pair-worse-kicker, middle/bottom pair, gusthots, backdoor draws, etc). Multiway you're not charging the flush draw anything - you and he are charging everybody else. I would suggest re-reading the relevant chapters of TOP.

The only strategy change to consider is in some circumstances smooth-calling the flop so that you get the chance to raise the turn if the flush card doesn't come and there's not heavy action in front of you. See HPFAP pp 170-171.
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  #9  
Old 12-30-2003, 02:54 PM
Sarge85 Sarge85 is offline
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Default Re: My Confidence is Shaken

Opps thinking of a different hand...I wasn't in position to check-raise here.

--

The other points are well taken.

--

I'm a bit curious on his play on the turn. He came out firing. Trying to get into my opponnents head here - what do you suppose he's thinking?

My guess is that he fealt he had even more outs when the King hit, either that he would be ahead if another King hit, his kicker, and of course his flush draw.

Comments on his play?
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  #10  
Old 12-30-2003, 03:50 PM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
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Default Everyone who wants to \"charge the flush draws\" PLEASE READ

I check-raised the flop to, as the mantra goes, to charge as much for the flush draw as possible.

This "charge the flush draws" mantra has annoyed me for a year and a half now. As ramjam accurately noted, there is virtually no situation on the flop where you are in a multiway pot and raising to "charge the flush draws." When the flush draw gets multiway action, it makes money on the bets going in just like you do (at the expense of those calling with weaker made hands and weaker draws).

I'm not 100% sure where this idea first appeared, but I think I know. It does not appear in 2+2 books... but it does appear almost word-for-word in a popular book on low-limit hold 'em of suspect quality.

This single line has caused more confusion on this forum than any other "concept" in poker:

1) Apparently you have concluded that if you are "charged too much" with your flush draw, you should fold
2) Others have concluded that it is correct always to play a flush draw passively to avoid being "charged"
3) Still others put in silly 3-bets and 4-bets on the flop (in situations where their winning chances are dubious) because they are deathly afraid of "failing to charge the flush draws." Ironically, the 3- and 4-bets are often better for the flush draws than the player making them.

Because pots are so big before the flop in limit hold 'em, anyone who flops ANY flush draw is usually correct to see both the turn and river almost no matter what. Virtually the only situations where it is correct to dump the flush draw is if it is CLEAR that someone already has you drawing dead. This is if the board is DOUBLE (not single) paired on the turn and there is heavy action, or if there are trips on board. You have to be quite sure that you are drawing dead, though, because the pot is typically very large. This gives you a massive overlay to draw to your nine outs. Folding when you "think he might" have a boat can be very expensive.

This means that flush draws are very easy to play... and play against. If you are playing a flush draw, you usually should play aggressively for the first bet or two on the flop, for various reasons. Otherwise, you are calling all bets until the river. Thus, when you are playing against a flush draw, he is your companion to the river. If it gets there, he wins. If it doesn't, you win. There is nothing you can do to get him out, so don't worry about him. Your job is to protect your hand from the people with bottom pair, gutshots, backdoor draws, etc. whom you can force out.

Everybody... for my sanity... please stop "charging the flush draws." It is not a helpful concept, and you guys interpret it in funny ways that lead you to make significant errors.
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