Marginal holdings

[XxPenguinxX]

I'm still learning O8, only playing limit at the moment until I've played enough hands to feel really comfortable. This is my first post here, but I've lurked for a while now.

There are three types of marginal hand which I've read conflicting things about, and I'm not sure whether or not to play. Incidentally, I would never raise with these, or call a raise, only limp in to see a flop if I thought I could do so.

1) Three wheel cards not including an Ace.

Say 2459, suits irrelevant. Or, more powerfully, 234x. Can anyone tell me what the odds are of an Ace falling on the flop?

2) A3xx n

Is any A3 worth a call, or do you need things to go with it? It's only a powerful hand if a 2 falls, but on those occasions I find it tends to win quite a lot because people don't like to throw their A2 away (I play at .5/1, so the play isn't great).

3) Two suited Aces or Kings.
Say A7s A9s. Or, less powerfully, A8s K5s, or K9s K6s.


Would you play any or all of these hands preflop, or should I just automuck them and save my money?

Cheers

[Buzz]

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Say 2459, suits irrelevant. Or, more powerfully, 234x. Can anyone tell me what the odds are of an Ace falling on the flop?

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Penguin - Sure. 3 to 1 against.
(actually 13244 to 4052 against).

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Is any A3 worth a call, or do you need things to go with it?

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(2) I try to think in terms of all four cards. Then whether I'll play a hand or not depends on what the cards are and how I'm interacting with my opponents.

I think A378-non-suited is the worst starting hand containing an ace plus a trey in a full game. Sometimes I'll play it and sometimes not.

I think A333-non-suited is the worst starting hand with an ace and a trey in heads-up competition, about a two to three underdog against random cards. (Heads-up against random cards, A378n becomes a slight favorite).

If you're a beginner, maybe a good rule to follow is to only play ace-three hands if the ace is suited to another card or if one of the other cards in the hand is an ace, a deuce, a four or a five.

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It's only a powerful hand if a 2 falls,

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Depends, in my humble opinion, on the specific cards on the board, and on the other two cards in your hand.

If, for example, you hold A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],
3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and the flop is 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], then your hand is very powerful.

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3) Two suited Aces or Kings.
Say A7s A9s. Or, less powerfully, A8s K5s, or K9s K6s.


Would you play any or all of these hands preflop, or should I just automuck them and save my money?

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A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] seems quite playable.

A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
also seems quite playable.

K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is a step down from the first two hands in a full game. You'll only catch a king on the flop about one time out of eight. Much of hand value of 69KKd involves second-nut flushes, which can be tough to play. You have to decide for yourself if you want to get into that. In head-to-head competition, the hand is a slight (10-9) favorite against random cards.

Buzz

[Ironman]

What Buzz said....

Oh, I will usually play the A 3 from just about any position.

The other stuff, I personally stay away from those because they are just marginal enough to get me in trouble.

Dave

[sasubpar]

I too am just starting to learn to play O8 in the last few months, and I have a semi-related question about the K9sK6s hand. In a LO8 tournament, on the bubble very shortstacked (blinds will put me all in), UTG+1, would K9sK6s be a good enough hand to push with, or would I be better off waiting for something better/the BB?

[Buzz]

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about the K9sK6s hand. In a LO8 tournament, on the bubble very shortstacked (blinds will put me all in), UTG+1, would K9sK6s be a good enough hand to push with, or would I be better off waiting for something better/the BB?

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S.A. - Fold and wait. K9sK6s is only a very slight favorite (10 to 9) against a random hand, one-on-one. Before the blinds get around to you, someone else may be eliminated.

Shortstacked on the bubble you're in a tough spot. You should like to come in with a raise that might either steal the blinds or get you one-on-one with the big blind, but you want a better one-on-one hand than this one for the attempt. K9sK6s is basically a coin flip versus a random hand.

Just my opinion. Kind of tough to fold suited kings, but I think that's your best play.

Buzz

[gergery]

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I too am just starting to learn to play O8 in the last few months, and I have a semi-related question about the K9sK6s hand. In a LO8 tournament, on the bubble very shortstacked (blinds will put me all in), UTG+1, would K9sK6s be a good enough hand to push with, or would I be better off waiting for something better/the BB?

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I would call.

Since your hand is roughly average, you will not do better or worse from a card perspective waiting. But from a stack perspective, you will do much better playing now, as a win will leave you with a bunch more chips then winning the next hand will.

-g

[Burdzthewurd]

Buzz and gergery, what are your thoughts on A3 with Broadway cards like A3JT, A3KQ, A3KJ, etc? Also if one of those hands you have a Kx suited to go with the A3 (anything less would not be a factor in my decision with the hand). Also A3 with a paint pair?

[sasubpar]

What if the hand is instead K6sK6s?

[Buzz]

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What if the hand is instead K6sK6s?

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Although I don't like low or middle pairs much, I do think K6sK6s is a better starting hand than K6sK9s.

But would I voluntarily play it if on the bubble in a tournament with a short stack?

No.

I'd almost surely see the flop with it for a single bet in a loose, passive ring game, even from mid-position.

However it wouldn't be a hand with which I'd voluntarily commit my chips during a tight period in a tournament. The risk of ruin is simply too great, in my humble opinion.

Buzz

[Buzz]

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A3 with Broadway cards like A3JT, A3KQ, A3KJ, etc?

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Burdz - I think they're all quite playable, even if non-suited, in a typical loose, passive game, for one bet. Single suited, even better, Double suited, better yet.

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Also if one of those hands you have a Kx suited

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I'll play those hands even if non-suited. Suited to a king is even better.

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Also A3 with a paint pair?

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I'm generally playing that one too.

And these are all hands I might be inclined to play in one-on-one situations (as on the bubble in a tournament). I probably wouldn't play any of them if I had just gotten through my blinds in a tight tournament situation, but I'd play them from UTG because all these hands are likely better than the hand I'll have to play in the blind. Those are all distinctly better than random hands, although they're not premium hands. I wouldn't call any of them "marginal."

Ace-three is a very strong low combination when head-to-head against a random hand. Of course I'd much prefer A34Kd to A3QKd, but both hands meet my playing standards.

Just my opinion.

Buzz