Opponent push/call matrix

proell · #1 08-05-2005, 01:35 PM

In the hope of getting a better "feel" for bubble situations (and just as an interesting nerdy poker project) I am working on a call/push matrix for the "average" player, starting with the 10's as the base and making adjustments for each subsequent level to the 50's.

What I am trying to come up with is a push and call range for each combination of contextual elements (ie: players, position, stack size, etc...)

In doing so I need to consider which elements would be required to make such a determination, and that each piece I add makes the matrix grow exponentially, so there is a tradeoff between simplicity and accuracy (if I used 100 elements to help determine the range I could be very accurate but my matrix would be prohibitively large, though if I used 2 or 3 it would be manageable but the results would be worthless).

So, here is what I came up with as a starting point. Let me know what you think is missing, too much, and even which elements hold the most weight in the decision.

# Players (left in tournament)
# Players Behind (left to act)
Chipstack (relative to BB)
Chipstatus (relative to other players)
Tightness (loose, avg, tight) -- based on call %
Push Position (if someone pushed, where did it come from)

Do you think this is enough to guess a decent call/push range?

For example, say we have an average tight player on the bubble (4 players), in the BB (0 left to act) with 10xBB and average chipstatus. The push cam from the SB... What do they call with here? If the push came from UTG what do they call with?

for now I am not worrying about other people in the pot as it is not as frequent of an occurrence. If I find this to be useful then maybe I'll do it for those cases as well.

Curious to hear thoughts on whether you think I will be able to make a useful determination based on a small enough set of criteria, as well as what those criteria need to be.

once I get the matrix together I will post a few situations and see if people can agree on a push/call range for that context.

proell · #2 08-05-2005, 02:55 PM

bump...

anyone want to explore the factors of what goes into an opponent's call/push decisions?

I forgot an important one: % of Stack at Risk!

if an opponent needs to call off > 80% of their stack it is much different than callinig off < 50%. I think this is a must-have.

ok. i'll let it go now.

Nottom · #3 08-05-2005, 03:03 PM

OK lets assmume you have all the needed datapoints.

You are gonna need a shitload of data to arrive at any useful conclusions.

Good luck with that ... I mean it as it would be interesting to see something like this. I just think its a lot more work than you think.

LowDown22 · #4 08-05-2005, 03:06 PM

Please let me know when you've finished coding you're bot...I mean matrix [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

#5 08-05-2005, 03:09 PM

I dont mean to deflate your balloon, but isn't the SnG-PT's the same thing -- You have call ranges, stack sizes and players, just put in the variables and the software does the rest. If it isn't...good luck, cuz this matrix is gonna be real complex. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Nottom · #6 08-05-2005, 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont mean to deflate your balloon, but isn't the SnG-PT's the same thing -- You have call ranges, stack sizes and players, just put in the variables and the software does the rest. If it isn't...good luck, cuz this matrix is gonna be real complex. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think hes looking for a way to generate the calling ranges based on things like stack size and VPiP.

#7 08-05-2005, 03:23 PM

i see.....

COOL! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

eastbay · #8 08-05-2005, 03:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]

# Players (left in tournament)
# Players Behind (left to act)
Chipstack (relative to BB)
Chipstatus (relative to other players)
Tightness (loose, avg, tight) -- based on call %
Push Position (if someone pushed, where did it come from)

Do you think this is enough to guess a decent call/push range?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You're missing an absolutely crucial element - image.

Are you planning on measuring this or just guessing at it?

eastbay

codewarrior · #9 08-05-2005, 03:32 PM

Is it just me, or did anybody else think this was going to be a "there is no spoon"-type pattern mapping post?

proell · #10 08-05-2005, 04:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

# Players (left in tournament)
# Players Behind (left to act)
Chipstack (relative to BB)
Chipstatus (relative to other players)
Tightness (loose, avg, tight) -- based on call %
Push Position (if someone pushed, where did it come from)

Do you think this is enough to guess a decent call/push range?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You're missing an absolutely crucial element - image.

Are you planning on measuring this or just guessing at it?

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

I was hoping to come up with a way to apply image as an after-the-fact calculation. I was thinking of generating it based on pushes over the last 10 hands (or 3 orbits?), with back-to-back pushes counting double and more weight given to more recent hands. The calculation would generate a number (%) by which I would increase or decrease the calling range by.

If I can't come up with a calculation that works then I would need to add that as a criteria element as well. I was just hoping to make this one a little more specific than "loose,avg,tight".