The definitive post on 22s v 33s (with some comments on 55s)

[ZeroPointMachine]

I don't think I can beat the 30s for a high enough ROI to justify not playing 50s or 20s. All the negatives of 800 chip starting stacks seem to pile up at the 30s. Hourly rate for me 55s>>22s>>>33s. I tried to play the damned things and learn what I could at that level. I learned that the 33s suck.

[johnnybeef]

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its not that easy to get big pairs early.

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While true, it is definately easy to stack someone with a good made hand such as a set, two pair, or a big pair.

[johnnybeef]

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if you're talking about 4-6 handed sorts of situations, I really disagree with you. I guess 7+ handed I can see folding trash.

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Care to expand? I proved my theory.

[skipperbob]

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beefy,

I must have missed the 'what comprises a definitive post' memo....b/c while this may be helpful and I like seeing you put your thoughts down....it's far from definitive. Plus, it's mainly regurgitation from what Irieguy has thought about in the past (many months ago) and doesn't even include what IMO are the biggest insights/differences.

Yugoslav

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Don't get your panties in a bunch [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] We all cut Beef some slack....He's mentally-ill, You know [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[fluorescenthippo]

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I see far too many good players pushing junk utg when they are short. For example, at t1100 with the blinds at 150/300 utg, I will frequently see players shove any two. This is a huge mistake

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I agree. I see that a lot on this forum too. Otherwise great players would rather push junk UTG than let the blinds go through them. fwiw, I HATE pushing junk UTG.

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yea i gotta work on this too. i think this was a big problem for me when i jumped to the 55s because they arent as tight on the bubble. at the 22s i would always push crap utg in the right situation because they never call enough.

[curtains]

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its not that easy to get big pairs early.

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While true, it is definately easy to stack someone with a good made hand such as a set, two pair, or a big pair.

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Its not easy to get one of these in the first 20-30 hands of a sit and go either. And sometimes you lose when you do get them! I go entire days without flopping a set sometimes, and entire sets without getting AA-QQ in the first 30 hands.

[Hendricks433]

I think its very easy to stack them if you get the hands. But I/everyone doesnt get the hands enough. But I see what Johnybeef is saying.

[ilya]

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if you're talking about 4-6 handed sorts of situations, I really disagree with you. I guess 7+ handed I can see folding trash.

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Care to expand? I proved my theory.

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Well, it's true that you will still have 650 left after going through the blinds in the example you give. However, that 650 amounts to just a tiny bit over 2xbb, leaving you with no FE whatsoever. Not only will the pot often be raised in front of you, but even if it's not, you'll often still have to win a showdown just to survive. It's true that you may pick up a better hand in the next orbit, but even if you push & win, you'll still have only slightly more than you did when you folded. There's also an opportunity cost to folding...if you get called & win, you will have a pretty big stack & the greater number of profitable opportunities that come with it. If everyone folds, you will have FE even after paying the blinds, and stand to win a lot more if you pick up a good hand & get called.

Since so much of it comes down to FE, I like folding much more if you're almost sure you'll get called anyway.

[johnnybeef]

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Its not easy to get one of these in the first 20-30 hands of a sit and go either. And sometimes you lose when you do get them! I go entire days without flopping a set sometimes, and entire sets without getting AA-QQ in the first 30 hands.


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Alright, I'll bight. We'll say that you get two pair, AA, KK, QQ, AK to hit, or a set about once every 60 hands. In levels 1-3 there are 30 hands. There for you can expect to one of these hands one out of every two sngs in level 1-3. Since you get these 4 out of every 8 sngs. I woiuld estimate that you will lose about 1/4 of these, and not get paid about 1/4. That leaves about 2 out of 8 sngs that you double up early. 1 out of 4 is a bit much imo, I would say it is closer to one out of every 5. The point is, it is easier to get your big hands paid at the 22s then it is at the 33s.

[ilya]

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its not that easy to get big pairs early.

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While true, it is definately easy to stack someone with a good made hand such as a set, two pair, or a big pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not easy to get one of these in the first 20-30 hands of a sit and go either. And sometimes you lose when you do get them! I go entire days without flopping a set sometimes, and entire sets without getting AA-QQ in the first 30 hands.

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This is all true, but I think what beef is getting at is that when you *do* get those hands, they tend to be markedly more profitable in the $20s than in $30s. Which I think is true.