35% Rule....How about a 20%+ rule?

[bluefeet]

This thread discusses the generally accepted PF strategy, that when facing a PF raising situation, where an adequate raise amount is in the neighborhood of 35% of your stack, pushing is a better consideration.

What about the times when you are in an obvious riase situation, do NOT meet the 35% rule, but the action to you has presented a pot deemed a 'significant' addition to your stack?

** typical party 33**

UTG ( $1800 )
CO ( $1400 )
Button ( $2300 )
SB ( $600 )
BB-hero ( $1900 )
Level:4
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [QQ]
consider TT-QQ,AK? (assuming KK or AA are a more clear value raise opportunity - a little less vulnerable to a call or two)
UTG folds.
CO calls [100].
Button calls [100].
SB calls [50].
Hero ???

There are 400 chips in the pot. Assuming Hero is in a clear raising position, t400-t500 maybe, he falls a little short of 35%. While pushing uncontested adds 20% to his stack.

Perhaps better examples, but basically.... in ignoring the 35% rule, is there a threshold to consider when the chips in the current pot warrant the apparent over-raise? Is there a percentage to keep in mind?

What are your thoughts?

[tigerite]

I believe Sklansky in TPFAP advocates pushing AK here when the pot is between 20 and 50% of your stack. Nobody has shown an interest in this pot and you have QQ.. shove for sure. I would also push AK defintely, JJ definitely, TT "most" times.

[tigerite]

PS It actually adds more than 20% of your stack - 400 compared to 1800.

[bluefeet]

Thanks, fixed.

There are examples maybe not as clear as this one. But we've seen posts displaying massive overpushes PF due to 'apparently not too interested' opponents...even during some early levels. Some hating, some advocating.

Of course it looks more juicy as the pot size in relationship to our stack increases. Just wondering aloud if there exists such a number that better justifies the move. I'll take a look at your reference.

[psyduck]

Yeah just push here. Like Tigerite said, TT+, AK+ here. Raising to some amount is only going to put you in a weird ass situation postflop if an ace or king flops and you have to make some 1/3 pot probe bet, but that close to commits you, etc.

[tigerite]

I usually go for the 20% one. But it depends on other factors of course. If a tight, decent player has raised and I believe he's not on a steal or full of it, then coming over the top with AK or especially TT/JJ can be suicide of course, even if the 20% rule is "met". I prefer to leave that for standard raises that have been called in one or two places, or just all limpers, or a min raise that's been called in several places. Stuff like that.

[bigt439]

Problem with this example is that I see a raise to 350 or 375 taking it down a lot or getting heads up. In other words, if you make that raise it is very rarely a multiway pot. I just think there is too much value in this hand to just open push although I totally understand the argument for doing so. I don't know, if you're comfortable post flop I think you miss a lot of value just pushing. You're getting called like never... which has got me thinking about bluff pushing in this spot with a naked a or low pp. It's a pretty rare situation though given that CO and button both limped so maybe that's why I haven't thought about this much before. Interesting.

[Scuba Chuck]

Yeah, pushing is overkill. I would raise to somewhere in the 500 chip range.

Oh, and hope you flop AQx.

[jeffraider]

I'd make it 450 here I think. Pushing isn't bad though, I think I'd prefer to just take a chance and see if I can get someone to make a bad call against me though, as deep as we are.

[adanthar]

I would push because random trash calls.