KK UTG

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I misread the preflop action. I still state that there is no way you can give equal weight to TT/JJ when a fairly tight player 3bets you opening utg. There is a section in HPFAP that covers a situation like this almost exactly. The hand example is with QQ. I recommend reading it.

[WillMagic]

I throw out a flop bet so I don't lose this pot to JJ. After that no more money is going in the pot - if he can call my flop bet he's got me beat.

I think the WA/WB line sucks here, largely because you are way behind so much more often than you are way ahead, and putting in the full 2 big bets seems like a shitty way to find that out.

Will

[bozlax]

Once you check the flop through, isn't it with the intent of either raising or folding when bet to on the turn?

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I misread the preflop action. I still state that there is no way you can give equal weight to TT/JJ when a fairly tight player 3bets you opening utg. There is a section in HPFAP that covers a situation like this almost exactly. The hand example is with QQ. I recommend reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm familiar with it.

A couple of differences:

Preflop got capped, so the flop is a little bigger.

The flop already got checked through, so it's not going to cost us as much to get to showdown.

Another difference is that BB was already in for 1 SB preflop and might widen his 3-betting range.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you check the flop through, isn't it with the intent of either raising or folding when bet to on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want say, that theoretically raising the turn could be a cool FP that works against a specific type of player, but in all honesty I've never met this type of player, ever.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I misread the preflop action. I still state that there is no way you can give equal weight to TT/JJ when a fairly tight player 3bets you opening utg. There is a section in HPFAP that covers a situation like this almost exactly. The hand example is with QQ. I recommend reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm familiar with it.

A couple of differences:

Preflop got capped, so the flop is a little bigger.

The flop already got checked through, so it's not going to cost us as much to get to showdown.

Another difference is that BB was already in for 1 SB preflop and might widen his 3-betting range.

[/ QUOTE ]

People 3betting from the BB shortens their 3betting range, not widens it (Ignoring 3betting SB/B/CO steal attempts). You can probably prove this using a PT database.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I throw out a flop bet so I don't lose this pot to JJ. After that no more money is going in the pot - if he can call my flop bet he's got me beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that against this opponent, this plan sounds pretty good.

Against a looser peeler, the situation seems to me like it would be more complicated. A lot of Small Stakes players aren't folding any big pocket pair in this pot that began heads-up, despite the preflop action and the board.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I misread the preflop action. I still state that there is no way you can give equal weight to TT/JJ when a fairly tight player 3bets you opening utg. There is a section in HPFAP that covers a situation like this almost exactly. The hand example is with QQ. I recommend reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm familiar with it.

A couple of differences:

Preflop got capped, so the flop is a little bigger.

The flop already got checked through, so it's not going to cost us as much to get to showdown.

Another difference is that BB was already in for 1 SB preflop and might widen his 3-betting range.

[/ QUOTE ]

People 3betting from the BB shortens their 3betting range, not widens it (Ignoring 3betting SB/B/CO steal attempts).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree in general, but I'm not sure that's the case in a pot that is already definitely going to be heads-up. Plus, Villain is decent and should know that, more often than not, he's up against two unpaired big cards.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once you check the flop through, isn't it with the intent of either raising or folding when bet to on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want say, that theoretically raising the turn could be a cool FP that works against a specific type of player, but in all honesty I've never met this type of player, ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen it work, but only against some seriously weak-tight micro players.

I mean, if we're just going for showdown, here, then that's cool, but that doesn't make the hand very interesting, now does it? But, if you're playing against an aggro player, mightn't you check the flop with the intention of inducing a turn bluff that you could then raise?

I think I like your approach. What if the action goes.

Hero Bets. Villain Calls.
Turn: Villain Checks. Hero Checks.
River: Villain Bets. Hero?

Do you call of fold here?