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  #11  
Old 10-29-2005, 12:26 PM
andyfox andyfox is offline
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Default Re: Phil Jackson

Red Auerbach won eight straight titles, 1959 to 1966.
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  #12  
Old 10-29-2005, 12:44 PM
ClassicBob ClassicBob is offline
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Default Re: Phil Jackson

[ QUOTE ]
Jordan and Shaq are frequently argued as the #1 and #2 best players of all time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never heard anyone argue Shaq as being the #2 player of all time.
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  #13  
Old 10-29-2005, 02:20 PM
Phoenix1010 Phoenix1010 is offline
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Default Re: Phil Jackson

[ QUOTE ]
Right. So. Is he a good coach? Lots of teams have 2 superstars. Hell the Heat had Shaq and Wade this year and didn't come close. Like I said, I don't follow basketball. Is Phil that good? Or has he just gotten lucky. It seems like he's past the short term and must be pretty good.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Heat came within one game of the finals... and they didn't have the supporting casts that the Bulls/Lakers had. Phil Jackson is an excellent coach, one of the greatest of all time. His championship record is inflated. there's no denying it, and those who try just look silly. He had the undisputed best player in the world in his prime (and another in the top five, plus a handful of very solid role players) during every one of his championship seasons. No bum off the street could take these teams to the title, but any very good coach could. He did a great job with what he had, but he was dealt a very strong hand. The best showcases for his coaching skills were the years that he didn't win the championship: the overachieving Jordanless Bulls and the very combustible and discontent Lakers teams. The fact that he got demolished by Larry Brown's Pistons despite having the most loaded lineup in recent memory does not help his case though.
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  #14  
Old 10-29-2005, 04:41 PM
mason55 mason55 is offline
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Default Re: Phil Jackson

[ QUOTE ]
Red Auerbach won eight straight titles, 1959 to 1966.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, which is why I said "one of the greatest"
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  #15  
Old 10-29-2005, 04:47 PM
Benholio Benholio is offline
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Default Re: Phil Jackson

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jordan and Shaq are frequently argued as the #1 and #2 best players of all time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never heard anyone argue Shaq as being the #2 player of all time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I phrased that funny, what I mean to say is that Jordan and Shaq are both often argued to be the greatest player of all time. Note: I am not saying either one of them is, just that they were good enough to be considered.

google: shaq greatest of all time
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  #16  
Old 10-30-2005, 06:22 AM
Malachii Malachii is offline
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Default Re: Phil Jackson

[ QUOTE ]
The Heat came within one game of the finals... and they didn't have the supporting casts that the Bulls/Lakers had

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah, 'cuz everyone knows what a great supporting cast Kobe and Shaq had right? Who was their third leading scorer again?
[ QUOTE ]
The fact that he got demolished by Larry Brown's Pistons despite having the most loaded lineup in recent memory does not help his case though.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true. Had Karl Malone been healthy, it might've been different.
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  #17  
Old 10-30-2005, 06:23 AM
Malachii Malachii is offline
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Default Re: Phil Jackson

[ QUOTE ]
Red Auerbach won eight straight titles, 1959 to 1966.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you really think Auerbach could possibly coach in todays NBA? GM sure, but Auerbach had a vision, excellent GM skills, and Bill Russell. He was hardly an X's and O's kind of guy.
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  #18  
Old 10-30-2005, 06:24 AM
Malachii Malachii is offline
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Default Re: Phil Jackson

Good question Mason55. I personally think he's an excellent coach, perhaps the best ever. I think his best asset as a coach is his ability to get players to work together and suppress individual goals and egos. People talk about Jordan being the best ever, and there's no question that he was. But let's not forget that Jordan was an incredibly intense, combative [censored] who was not an easy guy to get along with and completely dominated the ball. Phil managed to plug him into a system where his individual skills were meshed into a very sophisticated system that allowed the players to remain involved, and he was able to get Jordan accept this system.

Shaq and Kobe are another example of his ability to merge diverse personalities. Does anyone really think Larry Brown would've gotten 3 championships out of those two?
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  #19  
Old 10-31-2005, 03:23 AM
Steve00007 Steve00007 is offline
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Default Re: Phil Jackson

[ QUOTE ]
Well, he may or may not be a great coach, I'm just saying that an average coach would have won a bunch of trophies with those teams. The finals MVPs for his championships were Jordan (6 times) and Shaq (3 times).

Also, I don't think 'lots' of teams have had 2 superstars the calibre of jordan/pippen and shaq/kobe. Jordan and Shaq are frequently argued as the #1 and #2 best players of all time.

[/ QUOTE ]

People forget that the Lakers barely won 2 of their 3 titles, and in their other title, they struggled a lot during the regular season, managing to win the division by one game, and that came after they ended the season on an 8 game winning streak. Then they struggled quite a bit in the finals against a Larry Brown coached Philadelphia team early on in the series. Fortunately for the Lakers, they didn't have an average coach going up against Larry Brown.

The Lakers may have had the two best players, but the rest of their teams were often not that impressive. They trotted out the likes of Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Mark Madsen, Ron Harper, and AC Green at starting positions. That left LA at a significant disadvantage against teams like Sacramento and Portland, who were deep at every position. You could take some of the backups on the Sacramento and Portland teams, and they would be way better than some of the Laker starters. To sum up, I don't think the lakers had any kind of major talent edge over all of their opponents.

I think a good coach could have won one title with Shaq and Kobe. An average coach winning two or more? Highly unlikely.
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  #20  
Old 10-31-2005, 03:31 AM
Steve00007 Steve00007 is offline
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Default Re: Phil Jackson

[ QUOTE ]
The question is, did the players make him look good or did he make the players look good?

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer would be both.

Every great coach has benefitted from players who make him look good. When a team wins a title, the players will usually look good. When that team wins more than a title, they definitely will look good.

Just look at a guy like Larry Brown. Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Richard Hamilton, Chancey Billups, etc. have all made Larry Brown look good. When Brown made the finals with the Sixers, Allen Iverson made him look good. When Brown made the playoffs with the Clippers, Danny Manning and Ron Harper in their primes made him look good.
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