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#11
10-12-2005, 11:45 PM
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Re: Sinning Chritian\'s moral code as \"irrational\" as an atheists code
It is impossible to live "without sin". That means it is impossible to adhere to God's Absolute Morality. So what are christians to do? Why, they follow their own relative moral compass, and then beg forgiveness for the times when their own moral judgement differs from The Word. But they still follow their own moral judgement in their actions, just like an atheist or a wiccan.
Funny, this is almost like responding to "no god = murder is ok" with "possibility of redemption = murder is ok". 
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#12
10-13-2005, 07:48 AM
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Re: Sinning Chritian\'s moral code as \"irrational\" as an atheists code
[quote
Atheists on the other hand are faced with an absolute: nothingness after death. Whether you are "good" or "bad" you are going to end up in the same place anyhow, so why give a sh*t about your actions? You should simply seek as much personal pleasure as possible while you can with no regard for how it effects others. Especially children in Africa. [/ QUOTE ] The simple answer is because we are wired up (ie our brains) to give a sh*t! We have no choice! The comment that consequently atheist should maximise pleasure is, speaking as broadly as the statement was made, made, an elemnt of trith (IMHO) but one I won't argue with here (which does not mean I agree!) but bear in mind pleasure covers lots of thing and the attractiveness of one act may be offset by the lack or anticipated possible lack of pleasure that may also result from an act. The net pleasure equation could be said to lead to the actual actions carried out.
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#13
10-13-2005, 08:24 AM
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Re: Sinning Chritian\'s moral code as \"irrational\" as an atheists code
[ QUOTE ]
the Christian will, by assumption, be not be following the Absolute code they believe in but will be breaking some laws. How do they decide which ones to break: there is no absolute moral code on what moral laws can be broken. [/ QUOTE ] None can be broken. The price for sin is death according to Romans 6:23. As soon as you or I sin even once we are judged guilty of the entire law (James 2:10). As you have pointed out, everybody sins (breaks the moral law)...Christians, atheists, wiccans, etc. There are no provisions for choosing which laws to break and still be OK. That is the whole point of redemption as articulated in the Bible. God accomplished for us what we never could. He became a man (Jesus of Nazareth) and fulfilled all of the requirements of the law. He lived a perfect life. We put our faith in him and two things happen: 1) he takes our sin upon himself and it is nailed to the cross and defeated and 2) we are granted (clothed in) his perfect righteousness. So when God looks at us he does not see the sin (it has been killed on the cross) he sees his Son's perfect righteousness that covers us. The absolute moral law still exists and its purpose is to demonstrate to us our sin and lead us to the Solution (Jesus Christ).
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#14
10-13-2005, 08:53 AM
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Re: Sinning Chritian\'s moral code as \"irrational\" as an atheists code
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] the Christian will, by assumption, be not be following the Absolute code they believe in but will be breaking some laws. How do they decide which ones to break: there is no absolute moral code on what moral laws can be broken. [/ QUOTE ] None can be broken. [/ QUOTE ] If it impossible to break any part of a moral code, how do you believe a sin can be committed? Surely that is what sin is, breaking of a moral "law"?
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#15
10-13-2005, 09:01 AM
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Re: Sinning Chritian\'s moral code as \"irrational\" as an atheists code
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] the Christian will, by assumption, be not be following the Absolute code they believe in but will be breaking some laws. How do they decide which ones to break: there is no absolute moral code on what moral laws can be broken. [/ QUOTE ] None can be broken. [/ QUOTE ] If it impossible to break any part of a moral code, how do you believe a sin can be committed? Surely that is what sin is, breaking of a moral "law"? [/ QUOTE ] You misunderstood, or rather I was not as clear as I could have been. When I said that none can be broken I did not mean that it is impossible to break them. I meant that none can be broken without being judged guilty. There is no free pass. If you break the law, the price for your sin is death. Hope that is clearer.
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#16
10-13-2005, 09:24 AM
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Re: Sinning Chritian\'s moral code as \"irrational\" as an atheists code
[ QUOTE ]
Why, they follow their own relative moral compass, and then beg forgiveness [/ QUOTE ] This is not true. How can there be more than one moral compass? BTW I like the "logical" extrapolation of. [ QUOTE ] this is almost like responding to "no god = murder is ok" with "possibility of redemption = murder is ok". [/ QUOTE ] That's a huge leap of faith in your reasoning.
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#17
10-13-2005, 10:06 AM
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Re: Sinning Chritian\'s moral code as \"irrational\" as an atheists code
"The simple answer is because we are wired up (ie our brains) to give a sh*t! We have no choice!"
See, I don't believe that is true. The whole notion of being a rational creature is the ability to think abstractly and independantly of one's emotions. The emotions one faces when conducting an action are merely the products of environmental upbringing. Why is it that a Puritan will have a fit if they have to drink a beer, but a Catholic would have no moral problem whatsoever and take pleasure in it? Both are "religious." One's conscience is formed over time and circumstances, it is not set in stone. Culture has a major effect. This is what I find really weak and pathetic about Atheists: here they have this glorious opportunity to be truly free men, free of all inhibitions and able to explore whatever they want and do as they please with no permanent consequences - but instead they blow it all because they fear the judgement of others. They are full of pride. Surely, if I were an Atheist, I would be having much, much more physical pleasure than I am currently having without having a deleterious effect on the sum total of life's pleasures.
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#19
10-13-2005, 11:34 AM
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Re: Sinning Chritian\'s moral code as \"irrational\" as an atheists code
[ QUOTE ]
This is what I find really weak and pathetic about Atheists: here they have this glorious opportunity to be truly free men, free of all inhibitions and able to explore whatever they want and do as they please with no permanent consequences - but instead they blow it all because they fear the judgement of others. They are full of pride. [/ QUOTE ] Funny, that is why I admire atheists.
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#20
10-13-2005, 01:58 PM
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Re: Sinning Chritian\'s moral code as \"irrational\" as an atheists code
[ QUOTE ]
Surely, if I were an Atheist, I would be having much, much more physical pleasure than I am currently having without having a deleterious effect on the sum total of life's pleasures. [/ QUOTE ] Yep. The moral freedom to indulge in masturbation as desired could be the strongest argument yet for becoming an atheist! Or is it only immoral if the seed hits the graound for failure to position a tissue correctly? In which case masturbation with an extra thrill in that case...maybe a reason to become a Christian! Oh by the way, there are rational reasons why men should masturbate regularly (absent sexual intercourse every day) http://sexuality.about.com/b/a/080919.htm Give me rational morality over an irrational God given moral law anytime!
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