50/100 Boat??

[Big_Jim]

What happens when we check the flop and Villian leads into us on the turn?

On The 6?
On a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?
On an A?
On a Blank?

Good post, BTW.

[jzpiano14]

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ok so we can rule out AA and KK i think because of the UTG limper who the BB has to think is likely to call once he does, and its no fun playing AA/KK out of position in a multi-way pot w/deep stacks.

more likely holdings are AK/AQ/AJ suited, QQ-22 and suited connectors (remember he's got to believe there is a good chance this pot will be multi-way due to the UTG limper).

now on the flop he check calls...do you have a habit of continuation betting when you miss the flop or do you frequently check behind w/hands like AK heads up when you miss the flop to try and control pot size?
ie:what range of hands is BB likely to put you on based on the flop bet (which begs the question...what range of hands does your preflop raise indicate? is this a standard raise from you and what range of hands will you raise after a limper?)

i think we can safely rule out suited connectors (besides something like 56,67) however depending on what he interprets your flop bet as, AK and all pocket pairs are still viable options for him to call with.

but if he knows you, and knows that you will often fire multiple barrels with weak holdings he will be less likely to call the flop w/out a queen because he's not going to get a cheap showdown.
against players who will only fire one barrel and then shut down if called, its very easy to call on this kind of flop with a hand like 67 or 88, because you know you won't have to call big bets on the turn and/or river.
however against an aggressive player who won't just give up after getting called on the flop (which you find alot at the 50-100 level) its much harder to call with those marginal hands out of position.

so now please enlighten us as to which kind of player the BB views you as. does he think if he calls the flop he'll get to showdown cheaply...or is he trying to trap you with his Queen knowing that you're an aggressive player who'll probably fire big on the turn.

if you don't have a habit of continuation betting i think there is a very small range of hands he'll call the flop with.
however you'd probably make the same bet with any pocket pair on that flop then shut down on the turn after being called so you really haven't managed to define his hand.

on the river he is sure making it seem like he's got the queen...however now we're right back to where we started...needing reads on both his play and your table image.

just a suggestion, it might have made the hand easier to play if you check the flop.
when you raise preflop, bet the flop, then check the turn you make it very difficult on the river.
now against a habitual bluffer its a great play, however with a marginal hand it leaves you in a tough spot.

i know most people are overly concerned with "protecting your hand" but i think when playing with deep stacks its more important to protect your stack and by betting the flop and checking the turn you have put your entire stack in jeopardy.

i know i haven't given you a clear cut "call, or fold" answer that you were looking for, because i don't think anyone can do that.

i just wanted to present another way of thinking about the hand from start to finish.

hope it was helpful.

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excellent thoughts!

[riverboatking]

alot of times i like checking behind on the flop then raising the turn. if he pushes after that its real easy to fold.

but you have to remember that from the villian's perspective it looks very suspicous when the preflop raiser checks that board heads up...kind of like he's trapping...so he's not going to go bluff crazy on the turn.

plus now the pot is small that we can call a reasonable bet on the turn and make a decision on the river.

but like i said the hand plays much easier with reads.
the point is the way he played it put his whole stack in jepordy.

i'm not saying never bet the flop, i'm just providing an alternative line...at those limits its just so much more likely to get bluff raised on the flop then on the turn.

so many preflop raisers make the continuation bet that they get played back at alot on scary boards.

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're right, then you're wrong

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what do you mean?

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're right, then you're wrong

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think about how many times you have to get called on these overbets to make them more profitable then value betting.

about a fourth as much as a normal bet. Are you saying you don't like his all in?

[Big_Jim]

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alot of times i like checking behind on the flop then raising the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume we're putting no more money in the pot on the river?

This line seems like a better "Any Two" line... but it does prevent us form making difficult decisions.
Edit: And on a different turn card, we might still win in a showdown.

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but you have to remember that from the villian's perspective it looks very suspicous when the preflop raiser checks that board heads up.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point.

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plus now the pot is small that we can call a reasonable bet on the turn and make a decision on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
Also good point, especially against an aggressive player (which I assume most at the 50/100 level are). On this particular turn card... I think a lot of second best hands will think they're good often enough to bet, but will almost certainly fold to a raise.

The obvious drawback, here, is that we're letting Ks and As come off for for free, and we may be put to a tough river decision.

[ QUOTE ]
the point is the way he played it put his whole stack in jepordy.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is an interesting point that I need to think about for a while.

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at those limits its just so much more likely to get bluff raised on the flop then on the turn.
so many preflop raisers make the continuation bet that they get played back at alot on scary boards.

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I too have noticed this as an affect of trying to play a fairly LAG game, most of the time. I have recently been experimenting with continuation betting quite a bit less than I had been (particularly with hands with some showdown value), to get more respect for my later continuation bets, and avoid frequent re-steals.


Overall, I think I still bet this flop about 70% of the time.

Did your post mean you should call because BB didn't have a Q, or were you just critiquing BB's play?

[riverboatking]

i think you answered your own question.

but in case its still unlear let me help: i do like the all-in overbet w/the nuts.

i'm not making any qualitative judgements about this particular case, i'm just responding to the poster who claimed that making massive overbets with the nuts was bad.

oh right, I couldn't tell if you were arguing with me or explaining something to him