Bellagio 30/60 78s

[Lawrence Ng]

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i think you have to fold the river

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ACK! GASP! COUGH! CHOKE!

fold dis river? No way.

ACK! GASP! COUGH! CHOKE!

[Lawrence Ng]

21 Big Bets on the river if I count correctly. Easy call.

Lawrence

[lil feller]

I was pretty sure that the river call couldn't be wrong by much, even it was wrong.

What do you think about the flop play, and/or the turn play?

I really don't like how the flop/turn went down and feel that I should have tried to face at least part of the field with 2 bets on the flop.

I managed to face the entire field with 2 bets on the turn, but was worried that it was too late.

Thanks for the input,

lf

[tessarji]

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His hand was of no consequence on the river.

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Ok. If you are certain of your read on the man after you, then I would toss in the chips to see the villain's hand.

If you win this pot 3% of the time, then this call is -.35 BB. If you win this pot 5% of the time, then your EV is +.10 BB.

I'm not good enough to distinguish between a 3% and a 5% win in a situation like this, so I just call to see his hand, and for my own peace of mind.

Do you have the best hand you do or you don’t. Is it a correct call…sure, easy. Do you have the odds, I think everyone who reads and write the posts here know the math. You seem confident in your reads, okay. Look your asking what people think on your play. YOU WHERE NEVER THE AGRESSOR! You state, “that you know you need to improve” when the King hits. Then another King hits and the only way you could rationally call this pot is if the Villain has 4-5 or 8-(4 or 5)

Read the other posts they probably put things a little more gently than I did.

Why not bet the flop?

Or check-raise the flop?

Why not bet the Turn, representing a king (maybe middle pair folds) and you win if the flush draw doesn’t get there.

Why not check raise the Turn, forcing middle action to fold????

Who knows maybe they think you’re pretty good and that you have decent hand.

You can’t answer any of these scenarios because you did not force any of your players to consider you.

Honestly when did you think the button had two pair, when he raises the turn, or when he smooth called the flop, or maybe just maybe rationalizing the call on the river…Look you need to be right in this situation once every twenty times. The way you played that hand I doubt that would ever happen.

Okay your 20-1 on the river call, who cares if you’re beat...you're beat? You can beat three hands here, all of which had you beat until the river.

Be careful of becoming a Call Station. Sometimes poker can be very simple. Look it doesn’t matter to me if you keep calling in this situation. I wish everyone would do the same, my life would be easier. If you took offense to this ask yourself, why?

The biggest motto that I live by at the table is not to make mistakes. If I make 2 mistakes an hour at 40-80 it is going to cost me 40-160 dollars per hour. That can destroy my HR/rate.

1. Let me address something else, let’s say you lead into a better hand and lose a showdown. You will win more money later by others overcalling you.
2. Okay lets say you lead and everyone folds, you win the pot outright and you might have forced a better hand to fold, you win.
3. Lets say you fold the hand at some point, you save money.
4. If you just call, you need still look a little suspect. You called two big bets on the turn with a pair of 8’s and a gutshot.

If you think I’m wrong, fine play the same and best of luck. And you're right [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I should have been my analytical of your post I hope this meets you with better approval.

[oreogod]

usually I lead the flop in situations like this. Only thing that sucks is the pot is pretty big and since this is a live game, not sure if anybody is folding. Out of check raising or leading...I like leading as it will probably work out to your advantage more so than CRing.

I understand what you are trying to do, waiting for the turn and such...but Im not so sure about that move here. Buttons 3-bet after MP2 calls is pretty sick. Im going with suited K here...but there is enough doubt (and can u ever really be over 95 percent sure?) that u have to call the river.

[Lawrence Ng]

The main problem with this hand exist with your position and the fact you caught the flop with a pair and a gutshot to boot. So no matter how it's played out (especially with a pot of this size), you are pretty committed to pot showdown unless something really scary comes up on the runner runner.

Playing aggressively or passively on the flop won't make too much a difference imho but if you want to build the pot a little bigger believing you have the best hand at the moment, then I would probably check-raise the flop. Calling isn't too bad an option either to wait and see how the turn comes but you may sacrifice some EV here if you are ahead and miss out on some small bets that could be gained. If you have 8 players seeing the flop, then very likely at least half of them will continue on to the turn (with correct pot odds to chase most draws), so might as well check-raise imho and take advantage of the EV here.

I like the turn raise if you really think it can thin the field down. This is a great spot to do it and the King, while not the best card that fell, is definitely a lot better than a spade, 4 card straight or a smaller pair to the board or an Ace.

Then again I would have to think how dangerous it is to check and give a free card on so I would very likely have bet the turn instead of raise.

The rest of the hand as it played it is straightforward. You are calling the 3-bet on the turn hoping to really hit your gutshot and praying on the river that he had 2 pair that got counterfitted by King pairing up. Pretty standard from here on.

As you can see, my style is pretty aggressive in these big pots. I approach it with one thing in mind - winning the most I can from it. Folding here never crosses my mind simply because of the pot size and the fact that when you have 8 way btf, there are bound to be donkey hands that come up. If I lose, so be it, cost me what.. 2 big bets or so in mistakes in a 21 BB pot, whereas folding is a 21 big bet mistake.

Lawrence

[lil feller]

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Why not bet the flop?

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A valid question. Mostly because I think checking for info is more usefull then betting for info.

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Why not check raise the Turn, forcing middle action to fold????

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re-read the OP, thats exactly what I did.

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Honestly when did you think the button had two pair, when he raises the turn

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When he 3bet the turn, after I c/r the turn, as noted above.


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You can’t answer any of these scenarios because you did not force any of your players to consider you

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of course I did, you didn't read the post correctly.

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Okay your 20-1 on the river call, who cares if you’re beat...you're beat? You can beat three hands here, all of which had you beat until the river.

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So because I missed my gutshot/2pair draw I should fold on the river, even if some of the button's holdings got counterfeited? That doesn't make any sense. I'm easily good at least 5% of the time here.

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Be careful of becoming a Call Station. Sometimes poker can be very simple. Look it doesn’t matter to me if you keep calling in this situation. I wish everyone would do the same, my life would be easier. If you took offense to this ask yourself, why?

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I appreciate your concern, but trust me i'm in no danger of going broke. No offense taken, and I appreciate your input, but next time try reading the OP correctly.

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3. Lets say you fold the hand at some point, you save money

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Not if i'm folding the best hand...

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4. If you just call, you need still look a little suspect. You called two big bets on the turn with a pair of 8’s and a gutshot.

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Another statement caused by you misreading the post. I c/r the turn (bet came from the button) and forced the entire field to fold. I think, given that I didn't make a move on the flop, the turn c/r was the way to go. After the button 3 bets i'm easily getting the odds to call for just my gutshot, not to mention my 2pair draw, which is likely good as well.

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If you think I’m wrong,

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Not at all. I didn't like how this hand felt, thats why i posted it. But don't preach, just analyze. I'm pretty ok at this game.

Now, hopefully, you've understood the ACTUAL turn action. Does this change your thoughts?

lf

[brick]

Hi Feller,
I like checking the flop to see who bets, who calls, and who raises.
It went down perfectly for a check-raise on the flop because the pfr bet, and now you have a chance to give 3 players an opportunity to fold.

With this flop, and pot size, I only like waiting for the turn if you can't apply pressure on the flop. For example, if BB bets and everyone calls, then check-raising is pointless.

That’s why I hate posts...
I missed c/r (check raise) I thought you just called three bets-I read it to fast...
Let me take me foot out of my mouth and my sister’s feet too.

Well hey than you played it great. That’s what I would have done. I thought you just called the all the way.

Heck you played it great.

As far as the preaching, I am what I am. Good luck to you, you probably don't need it though. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]