Detailed question: Folding a winner to preserve tight image

ellipse_87 · #1 07-16-2005, 01:48 AM

converter

First 30 or so hands tonight at a single .25/.50 table at Poker Stars, I'm in before the flop literally 6% b/c of really bad cards. Then, in a short burst, I lose a showdown w KK and win with Q's/7's from the BB and K's/J's from MP3.

So I start implementing this accidentally created table image. Here's an example, where I call with a hand I don't normally play to fold four opponents behind me on the flop, and then the remaining player on the turn. Unheard of at .25/.50, at least in my experience.

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, CO folds, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds.
------------------------------------

So this is a great thing. But then, ridiculously, I mis-click and call from MP2 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. The flop comes K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls $0.05 (All-In).

He's all-in & river's a blank.

This is not an interesting turn play in and of itself; I don't really care for now what the proper play would be to win the most $ in these situations long term. Let's assume that I have reads that make it an easy raise/3-bet. (He actually beat me with a straight.)

What I'd like to know is, how many of you would lay down a winning hand here to preserve your tight image? I didn't even think about it until after the three-bet. Showing this hand made me more hesitant than I otherwise would have been in attempting aggressive steals in later hands.

On the other hand, how many of you would, if your read told you to fold to a certain straight, pay 1 BB to show down and let everyone know that you had trips, and that you play from MP with hands like J8o? This would reinforce your tight post-flop image and establish a history of having gone to showdown only with pocket overpair, 2-pair, or 3-of-a-kind.

As I'm writing this, I'm realizing the answer to my own question. It's to my advantage to increase the range of starting hands my opponents can put me on; and showing the set only reinforces any wariness they might have developed about taking me to showdown with something that only beats, say, top pair.

I hope you don't mind that I post this, though, since I took the time to write it. It was interesting to think about.

Maybe in the same hand above, but with top pair/low kicker which we know would win the pot, we lay down sometimes?

MrWookie47 · #2 07-16-2005, 01:58 AM

The only thing as (or more) profitable as having a TAG image and playing LAG poker is having a LAG image and playing TAG poker.

You could never, never, never, never, ever convince me to lay down a winning hand. No amount of table image is worth a whole pot. Half or more of your opponents have no idea what your table image is. They only know their own two cards. And then, if I can get an image to the other half (or quarter, or eighth, or no one) that's the opposite of what I'm playing, that's pure gravy, my man. Live it up. Hell, show it down just because it feels good to show a crappy hand that wins.

You gots to play at a 2+2 table, dude. Few things bring me greater joy than sucking out on Nfinity's AA with my 73o.

Eeegah · #3 07-16-2005, 02:03 AM

Ooh boy. Some questions for you:

1) How do they know you're folding a winner?
2) This is .25/.50 we're talking about. Do you really think most of them are paying attention to your table image, or if you're making big laydowns?
3) When a ring game can go from full to heads up in five hands, and opponents regularly shuffle in and out, how do you know you're going to milk whatever image this portrays?
4) Why would you want to portray a history of only showing down huge monsters? This means we won't get the action we want when we do get something good, and likely means we can't bet our marginal hands on the river for value.

In my experience (admittedly only 30k odd hands at .25/.50 and below), table image means absolutely nothing to most of these players. Winning pots are relatively rare, especially for us tight preflop folk. Take all the winners you can get.

Edit: The looser someone thinks I am the better.

tinhat · #4 07-16-2005, 02:03 AM

I play cards for money - by definition winning hands don't get folded [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The simplest way I can put the rest is you want ppl to think you're loose - no one makes money scaring others into folding (which isn't going to happen in ml anyway).

Mike

ellipse_87 · #5 07-16-2005, 02:38 AM

Let's say that pot odds have you calling a river bet, but not by much. Is there ever a situation where you're better off with your opponents not knowing the cards you've played, and that makes the difference to convince you to fold?

Vote4Pedro · #6 07-16-2005, 02:46 AM

If I say "Yes" can we end discussion on this thread immediately? This is the most ridiculous post I've ever read. Just play solid poker and make +ev decisions.

bottomset · #7 07-16-2005, 02:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Let's say that pot odds have you calling a river bet, but not by much. Is there ever a situation where you're better off with your opponents not knowing the cards you've played, and that makes the difference to convince you to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

dude you are playing .25/.5 less than 1% of your opposition pays attention, image is worthless at this level most of the time

def. not worth folding a winner for

dozer · #8 07-16-2005, 02:53 AM

it is pretty dumb to knowingly fold a winning hand for image. Having a TAG image is not a good thing, you want people to pay you off, so what good is it if everyone thinks you are a rock and folds when you bet or raise? I try to make my image at the table as aggressive as possible, so people think I am full of crap.

irishpint · #9 07-16-2005, 03:04 AM

i actually fold AA UTG sometimes because id rather keep my table image of a complete donk giving away money- raising and winning a hand wouldn't look good for that.

seriously why would anyone ever suggest folding a winner hand? so they bet into you nEXT time and you can raise them? your hand is a winner now, why not raise now? ANd WTF, how do you ever know it's a winning hand? you have quad Aces?

As my high school physics teacher once said..."the nature of this question does not allow it to be asked". i still dont know what that means, but it applies here.

ellipse_87 · #10 07-16-2005, 04:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I say "Yes" can we end discussion on this thread immediately?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if showing your cards would cause you great shame or humiliation? Like, say if you're at a live table and you get a booger on the underside of one of your cards?

I think I would fold in that situation. That's not for everyone, though.