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  #21  
Old 04-20-2005, 01:28 AM
ACPlayer ACPlayer is offline
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Default Re: The Land of Opportunity

So, by this definition we have a liberal administration and congress at the moment. Who would have thunk it -- the Liberals are running the country!
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  #22  
Old 04-20-2005, 01:29 AM
Dead Dead is offline
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Default Re: I\'ve Already Tried Voting Libertarian

Some people on here feel that we don't live in an "economically free" society, apparently.

The US has one of the freest economies in the world.

Having a safety net does not make a country less receptive to economic freedom. Likewise, having taxes doesn't mean that there isn't economic freedom.
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  #23  
Old 04-20-2005, 01:49 AM
Felix_Nietsche Felix_Nietsche is offline
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Default Re: The Land of Opportunity

There are very few pure conservatives. There are:
Economic Conservatives - Social Liberals (Rudy Guiliani?)
Economic Liberals - Social Conservatives (Alan Colmes)

Bush lowered taxes = Conservative move.
Sign Campaign Finance Reform (aka limiting political speech) = Liberal Move
Farm Bill = Liberal Move
Drug Bill = Liberal Move

Bush is not a very good conservative in my opinion... The fact he has not even used his veto power once to limit the size of govt is terrible. There are MANY THINGS he can be fairly criticized for but the left-wing-black-helicopter-kook crowd prefers to call him a nazi and cite silly conspiracy theories...

With regard to foreign policy this is an issue which transends conservative/liberal. In foreign policy, you decide what actions are needed to make your country safe and properous and take action. The American democrats are viewed as being INCREDIBLE WEAK in this arena which is the #1 reason Bush43 got re-elected...
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  #24  
Old 04-20-2005, 01:54 AM
QuadsOverQuads QuadsOverQuads is offline
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Default Re: What is the United States of America?


There are words like Freedom
Sweet and wonderful to say.
On my heartstrings freedom sings
All day everyday.

There are words like Liberty
That almost make me cry.
If you had known what I know
You would know why.

-- Langston Hughes


q/q
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  #25  
Old 04-20-2005, 01:56 AM
Felix_Nietsche Felix_Nietsche is offline
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Default Re: I\'ve Already Tried Voting Libertarian

Economic Freedom usually results in the people have more of their own money while the govt gets less of the people's money.
Less Money = Less Govt Power

E.g. The Govt can pass a laws to limit freedoms...BUT...they need money to enforce those laws. They are many laws on the books that are not enforced because the govt does not allocate the resources($) to enforce those laws...
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  #26  
Old 04-20-2005, 06:29 AM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Default Re: What is the United States of America?

Obvious Ones:
It is a republic based on representative government with elections based on a set of regulations outlined in the constitution but subsequently added upon.

It has a strong central government who has complete control over the means of force (no insurrections, no physical challenges to its authority, no seccession in last 150 years).

It is the #1 economy in terms of size and GDP/capita and also has the most powerful militarily.

It has the most diverse ethnic population of any major country due to a variety of social, cultural, economic, political, and historical factors.
__________________________________________________ _________
Less Obvious:

It has high levels of protection for freedom of speech, although these protection have become more of legal protections as social norms have turned against certain forms of speech. Nevertheless, still the most free place to express opinion and find a variety of diverse opinions.

Though began with very few government controls over economy and personal life, government gradually became more involved in the 1930's. It's income tax system, wealth redistribution programs, and various enviormental and safety regulations make its economy more controlled then say laizze faire countries in Asia and the third world, but less controlled then socialist countries in Europe.

International Relations: The USA practicies RealPolitic based on thier own self interest. This is the international standard for most countries in the world.

I could probably think of more to write but not right now
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  #27  
Old 04-20-2005, 08:41 AM
ACPlayer ACPlayer is offline
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Default Re: The Land of Opportunity

Why is lowering taxes considered a conservative move?

Consider that if impact of lowering taxes is not to reduce the size of the govt but to increase the size of the deficit. The Bush43 tax cut did not lower the size of the govt it increased the deficit. Ergo it is not conservative or liberal but just stupid. Right?

Al Gore embarked on the true conservative policy with his Reduce Govt initiative -- I forget what it was called. Whether it was successful or not that is a seperate debate.
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  #28  
Old 04-20-2005, 09:17 AM
MMMMMM MMMMMM is offline
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Default Re: The Land of Opportunity

[ QUOTE ]
Why is lowering taxes considered a conservative move?

Consider that if impact of lowering taxes is not to reduce the size of the govt but to increase the size of the deficit. The Bush43 tax cut did not lower the size of the govt it increased the deficit. Ergo it is not conservative or liberal but just stupid. Right?

[/ QUOTE ]

The deficit you cite was increased through primarily spending, not through lowering taxes, I believe.

Very often, lowering taxes ultimately results in greater overall revenues due to greater economic growth. No doubt you have read adios' excellent posts on these matters so I won't elaborate further.
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  #29  
Old 04-20-2005, 09:52 AM
ACPlayer ACPlayer is offline
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Default Re: The Land of Opportunity

The definition of conservative that was offered was one who works to reduce govt (paraphrased).

Doing the politically expedient thing by reducing taxes dodges the real work of the conservative which is to cut unneeded spending. The economic impact of or the revenue impact is not under discussion.

I stand by the question -- why is reducing taxes considered Conservative (by this or any other definition of Conservative that someone wishes to offer)?

The reasons frequently offered are:

1. It will reduce spending. How?
2. We should return the money to the people. But you cite statements that reducing taxes increases the overall and hence per capita tax revenue.
3. It will increase productivity. This is an OK argument though there are studies that show that the productivity impact is debatable.
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  #30  
Old 04-20-2005, 09:53 AM
DVaut1 DVaut1 is offline
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Default Re: The Land of Opportunity

[ QUOTE ]
Before arguing a position BOTH PARTIES must agree to the SAME defintions.

[/ QUOTE ]

If both parties agreed on the definitions, there likely wouldn't be an argument.

[ QUOTE ]
Conservatism: the belief that countries benefit more from smaller less active govt.
Liberalism: the belief that countries benefit more from larger more active govt.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're correct to note that Buckley is one of the godfather's of contemporary 'conservatism', which is to say he's partly responsible for the right's move away from true conservatism to a hybrid neoliberalism/libertarianism. True conservatives aren't concerned with benefits and harms.

[ QUOTE ]
To call someone 'conservative' or 'liberal' is an ECONOMIC way of communicating what their BASIC set of political belief. Obviously some people's politcal beliefs can be quite complicated but it can take HOURS of careful questioning to discover all their politcal beliefs. Fuh-get-about-it. Give me the big picture. Call yourself 'conservative', 'liberal', or perhaps an hybrid of both.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're implicitly agreeing with me that political labels, at least the way they're used in typical American political lexicon, are merely used to facilitate simplicity; I’m arguing that simplicity comes to the detriment of accuracy and nuance, and at the expense of a debate that possesses real depth.

If you'd like to refer to yourself as a conservative out of simplicity, fine. Far be it from me to get in the way of efficiency. But realize that efficiency often comes in the way of accuracy, and if you believe 'economic freedoms lead to social freedoms, and this is a benefit to society', then you're not a conservative.

[ QUOTE ]
Some people try to argue the defintion of political conservatism is advocating the status quo.
I think this is silly because a person can become conservative one day and liberal the next depending on what laws are passed. If the govt passes a law for higher taxes and I want lower taxes, I now become a 'liberal' because I want to change the status quo.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not necessarily true. Conservatives are in favor of the status quo, and believe progress should incrementally, or not at all. For example, using the hypothetical law you used - if the current income tax rate was 5%, and the new law adjusted tax rates to 30%, conservatives would vehemently object and continue to be conservative, as they're opposed to radical changes in laws; merely because laws change doesn't mean conservatives do. Conservatives just claim that the new law continues to violate the ‘true’ status quo, even if that law continues for hundreds of year.



[ QUOTE ]
Good defintions never change.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why it’s a detriment to us all when words like ‘conservative’ and ‘liberal’ are frequently so misused that a goodly number of Americans think liberal means something along the lines of “someone who likes trees, cappuccinos, killing the unborn, open-toed shoes and taxes” while conservative means something like “old white guys who hates gays.” I’m not accusing you (Felix) of such ignorance; you understand the debate here. But that having been said that, I believe advocating efficiency over accuracy comes with a price – that price being coarser, shallower political discourse.
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