My small pairs are losing money

[ScottTheFish]

20K hands at 2/4, win rate is Ok, nothing to brag about. Small sample size I know, blah blah. Anyway all my pairs < 88 are losing money. I probably just need to learn to flop more sets, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

I limp them from anywhere, I'll play em if it's been raised as long as i have 2 cold callers in front of me, otherwise muck. Open raise occasionally from LMP or LP if the game dictates it...(semi-tight blinds, weak-tight PF players, etc)

Also, let's say an otherwise decent player is actually losing with these hands, what is the most likely culprit? bad table selection? Should I not play these for a raise without at least 3 cold callers? Learn to flop more sets? Out of date pattern map?

Thanks for any advice.

[JinX11]

I have problems here, too, in particular 44 and 33 (I dominate with dueces, go figure), so I'm not the best advice giver on this topic, but I did notice one thing.

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I limp them from anywhere

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I hope you are never open-limping with them in mid-to-late position. This would be bad, I think; smaller pairs should probably be folded; middle pairs, raised.

I, am also, hoping there is some good advice imparted in this thread, as well. I could use the help here, too. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Munga30]

Sample size. It's not just for win rate anymore.

Review what hands you have. Are you losing money because you are getting raised preflop when you play the small pairs early? Are you not collecting enough when you do flop a set? Playing scared, playing slow, waiting for the safe turn card? All of these are possible. You alone have the answers.

[mack848]

I read a post by Bison today (sorry no link) that suggested that with good table selection, you should be able to profitably limp from EP with any pair (in Small Stakes games).
It's hard to believe that you are hitting less than your fair share of sets with all six of these pairs. Yet, it's also relatively straightforward to play them when you do.

Any chance that you are taking them too far if you miss?

[lu_hawk]

With 20K hands you should have flopped a set about 11 times with each pair. I think it's pretty likely that you have flopped less than this with 33 and 44 and flopped more than this with 22. 20K is way too small to be analyzing small pairs like this.

[Lost Wages]

I limp them from anywhere...

Sounds like that might be part of the problem. The conditions need to be right to open limp small pairs in early position (loose and not too aggressive).

If it's folded to you in MP you usually have to just muck them. When you open limp in MP you might as well just hold up a "Raise Me" sign.

Should I not play these for a raise without at least 3 cold callers?

Yea, I don't think 2 cold callers is enough.

Lost Wages

[StellarWind]

Most online 2/4 games are not good enough to limp small pocket pairs UTG.

I like to have four definite players (raiser + three more) before I coldcall with a medium/small pocket pair.

Open-limping small pocket pairs from the MP seats is a bad idea. It's hard to accept that a hand may be profitable UTG but unprofitable first-in from MP2, but it's true. If it isn't good enough to raise you need to muck it.

In fact I never open-limp any hand from MP3, hardly ever from MP2, and infrequently from MP1. Certainly you should not be limping hands with showdown value like aces and pocket pairs.

As for discussing your results ... don't make me send Sample Size Man to break your legs.

[Bob T.]

Learn to flop more sets? Out of date pattern map?


these two are the likely culprits.

[ScottTheFish]

Thanks for all the advice. Sounds like I need to tighten up on the small pairs a bit in EP, unless I can start finding these 40% VPIP 2/4 tables I keep hearing about but can never seem to find.

I'll do that for 500 hands and post the results for comparison [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Just kidding, thanks for not beating me up TOO bad about sample size.