15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

[ike]

This raising and folding to a 3bet preflop advice needs to stop. It was insane enough with KQ but with AJ too now? If its not worth 6.5 : 1 for you to see a flop with AJ, even heads up out of positon against a likely huge hand, your problem is your postflop play not your preflop call.

[ike]

Your river reasoning is flawed because of the two hands AsJs and AsQs; I'm not sure how severely this impacts the decision, but its definetly relevant. I personally would have just given up on the flop most of the time.

[Cerril]

I'm glad to see so many well thought out replies. I guess given all that that I am playing quite a bit too weak, but I don't think I would have regretted my decision to get out of there all that much, but I'm curious given the actions of TAG preflop whether that would have been a huge bad decision or just a slight loss over time to put him on a subset of hands that has me pretty well dominated? I guess maybe slight, since there's a bit of disagreement what the proper course of action is).

Is there any question (if you don't mind a reply that probably doesn't belong in this forum) of whether there's a later point that you can be sure enough to just give in and fold rather than calling it through? Thanks.

[Tyler Durden]

I don't think you're losing much if anything by folding AJ UTG in that game.

[nykenny]

i like the fun factor but feel this is a high-variance play. not sure about the EV, but coming from you, i'd suppose it's +EV.

Kenny

[1800GAMBLER]

Oh yea.

I guess you need of a detailed read for this play, if you knew TAG would have folded AQo AJo to your play then making that final river bet is hugely important, if you think there's a chance he called with them then it's tricky because he'll call with Ajs AQs missed.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
This raising and folding to a 3bet preflop advice needs to stop. It was insane enough with KQ but with AJ too now? If its not worth 6.5 : 1 for you to see a flop with AJ, even heads up out of positon against a likely huge hand, your problem is your postflop play not your preflop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are just propositions of course, and I've never actually done it myself. But against a known solid 3-betting player who invariably has AK, KK, QQ, JJ and maybe AQs, I'm just proposing that folding heads up with AJo out of position even with 6.5:1 may not actually be a horrible play even with optimal postflop play. Now, if someone can prove me wrong, go ahead. I do believe there are instances where folding to a 3-bet preflop can be correct (open-raising with a small pocket, being 3-bet by a tight solid player with position, folded back to you with the intent on flopping a set or dropping it, ala Tommy Angelo). They are rare, but worthy of at least consideration.

Garland

[skp]

I am now convinced that checkcalling the river on a blank is not the best move. LAG may well have called the turn raise with one pair and hoping to improve. While he will usually call the river with any crappy pair, he will fold often enough to make bluffing with AJ worthwhile (bluffing is even more correct where the river card is another high card like a Queen or a ten as the Lag with (say) a 6 will now be looking at 2 or 3 overcards out there).

[skp]

I just went to the results. I didn't know that TAG called the turn checkraise. In that spot, I don't fault Nightwish for checking the river. He should bet his Aj on teh river if up against just the LAG.