a hand youll all probably hate

[Digs]

I play it the same way most of the time

[flawless_victory]

standard 4 me, i like it.

[mmcd]

Assuming this is tough enough game that unknowns are generally at least semi-reasonable players, I think this is a pretty bad line. Sure, your flop 3-bet might have cleaned up 2 outs, but a flop cold-call would do much better here.

There's at least a fair chance that the tight/passive player folds overcards for 1 more bet on the flop (especially if he has no heart in his hand) because flop cold-calls from the bb are scary on paired boards. If he does fold, you have a good chance at seeing a free river in the headsup pot. If the tight/passive calls, however, the cold-caller will be pretty much forced to bet the turn if has a pair, but he won't like it much, which means he'll probably fold to a checkraise, and if he's on a semi-bluff with A3 or A5, he'll just give it up and check behind. If the river blanks, you'll have a good shot at picking up the pot with a bet because they'll think you whiffed on a turn checkraise.

As you played it, he's going to put you on either a 2 or a small pair, so you'll probably get raised on the turn a lot, even when he only has A3 or A5.

[ArturiusX]

I like it.

[oreogod]

umm maybe its because Im a fish, but I see nothing wrong with this hand. Basically w/ your flush (if thats all the outs u have) puts any bet u put in on the flop as neutral, 3 in and you are getting at least 35 percent equity. So say u pull this move and the TP actually folds his AK, KQ, etc. U boost your equity up 13 percent if not more...so instead of 35 u are boosted to almost 50 percent to take this down (if TP did actually have u dominated). Sometimes he might fold the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] that could on occasion bd you. Not to mention, your outs to an 8 could very well be good here as well.

Let me know if my thinking is off here. But the move seems solid to me, I think even if the raiser has u beat, and he may not, u have a good amount of outs.

EDIT: forgot to account for the fact if he is folding a K, u have one less out then I thought. Also, your 3bet could scare the crap out of your unknown and he could make a bad fold. Imo, he probably has 55-99 (as well as other possible hands for sure...overs, smaller heart draw, etc). By just calling u decide to give up any chance of winning the pot outside of u hitting one of your outs. I think u increase your equity in a decent sized pot, and u take the pot down a certain percentage of the time u would not have been able had u just decided to play your odds and call.

[tolbiny]

"U boost your equity up 13 percent if not more...so instead of 35 u are boosted to almost 50 percent to take this down (if TP did actually have u dominated)"

Uhhhh, no- but you edited for that. I don't know where you got 13% in the first place. Secondly your K8 is a non nut draw- both because its K high and because there is a pair on the board. You do not have 35% equity unless either your K or 8 outs are good.

"By just calling u decide to give up any chance of winning the pot outside of u hitting one of your outs"
c/r the turn is a perfectly viable option here for winning the pot outright, and as others have mentioned, a much scarier line after CC the flop.

I don't think the three bet is terrible- and not a bad way to mix up your play from time to time, but i think the optimal play on the flop is to call.

Edit: the 13% is obviously your 3 outs twice.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
"U boost your equity up 13 percent if not more...so instead of 35 u are boosted to almost 50 percent to take this down (if TP did actually have u dominated)"

Uhhhh, no- but you edited for that. I don't know where you got 13% in the first place. Secondly your K8 is a non nut draw- both because its K high and because there is a pair on the board. You do not have 35% equity unless either your K or 8 outs are good.

[/ QUOTE ]

making a flush from flop to river is 1.9:1 which does indeed equal 35 percent equity. You could also use the rule of 4...which is 9*4=36 but its a little off as u can see. Flush = 35 percent equity on flop.

13 percent was accounting for 3 outs. which was just a general number, the actual number for a 3 out draw from flop to the river is 7:1 I think, so 12.5 percent.

[ QUOTE ]

"By just calling u decide to give up any chance of winning the pot outside of u hitting one of your outs"
c/r the turn is a perfectly viable option here for winning the pot outright, and as others have mentioned, a much scarier line after CC the flop.

I don't think the three bet is terrible- and not a bad way to mix up your play from time to time, but i think the optimal play on the flop is to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

This I am not arguing, as its true. As with all things poker though, everything is situational. Just like that Cardplayer quiz thread...ppl saying "who would ever bet this turn" is a really lame, general thing to say. Because honestly it depends, like here. What may be the situation in general does not always apply.

Also Im not sure how big I am on c/r the turn here. I dont really have problems with it, u usually have a good amount of outs and its a very-good/good/fair/decent move, but your CC on the flop may very well get this turn checked around, which is true that its no sad loss since u have a draw, it does take away your opportunity to take this pot from a better hand a percentage of the time. I dunno, Im going to bed, Im just typing words at this point.

--Dustin


EDIT: the first part was not meant to come out like a lecture, you are not a poster that needs that in anyway. Just wanted to make sure it wasnt taken wrong. And to be fair 1.9:1 is 34.49 percent, but whatever.

[TStoneMBD]

i forgot to mention that if the TP has an overpair hes almost certainly calling my 2 more bets probably figuring that i myself have an overpair but since i didnt 3bet preflop its not a very good one. he might fold a small pair and hell probably almost certainly fold overcards.

so when i checkraise 3 bet on this board im calling by pairs getting 2:1 on my money which actually is +ev for me assuming that my king outs are good a portion of the time which of course they are.

when i checkraise 3 bet and the TP folds he either folded overcards which will often contain a king or hed have folded a small pair like 77.

[tolbiny]

I isn't hugely relevant to this hand since he has a king high draw + likely additional outs- but i am sick of this statement-
"i have a flush draw, i have 35% equity, i should cap it if its three ways."

I see it so often in ahnds where they are the bb with 87s on a K T 2 board with 2 of their suit.
35% is a tiny ev edge and it doesn't make much to swing it to a bad play, because your flush draw does not win 100% of the time it hits.
1. There will be bigger flush draws out there, leven if its only 2% of the time you hit your flush that a bigger one is out there that takes your 34.5% equity down to 32.5. Also One big card of your suit will beat your flush 16% of the time that you hit it on the turn, 1/6th of 17%/2(cause somethimes a bigger heart won't be out there) is about 1.5%, and your "equity edge" has gone from 35 to 31, and all the extra bets are now costing you money. Sure you will hit trips or two pair, but others will hit boats on your flushes, meanwhile you risk driving out paying players, and sacrifice the EV of getting multiple bets in when you do hit your flush, on bigger streets when you likley have a 90% edge, not a 2% one.
Thisisn't really directed at you oregod, its just a general rant about players who overestimate the strenth of thier hands from the word go.

[dave44]

Posting blind.

I like the flop play. Unknown is very likely raising any pair on this board. 3-betting lets you knock out the preflop raiser when he has overcards to clear up some outs for yourself and gives you a chance to knock the unknown off his pair if a scare card hits on the turn. If the preflop raiser doesn't fold, at least you're getting about even money on your raise since you have the flush draw.

Heads up on the turn, I wouldn't bet just any card. Unknown most likely has a pair and I doubt he folds it to a complete blank. I would bet any ace, king, queen, jack, and eight. I'd say a ten is borderline. Anything else, I'd rather just check-call.