2 questions

[PokerBob]

do you hate preflop? what's your flop play?

Canterbury 15/30 8 handed
There are 2 BB's posted in this hand cuz someone left. UTG folds, UTG+1 opens. This means very little. He is a fish (he's a dealer at canterbury) and his range is HUGE here. Folds to me on the CO with T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I call. Super fishy button comes along. One blind folds, one calls. The one who calls plays pretty well and is very honest.

Flop 4 ways (9SB): 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Blind bets, UTG+1 raises, I..........

[hobbsmann]

Preflop is probably too loose, but T9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is just so pretty. As for the flop this looks like a super easy 3-bet given all of your equity in this pot. Plus you might get a free card on the turn.

[goofball]

I don't hate preflop but I do think it's a mistake. Even if his opening range is huge you're likely behind it. Depending on waht kind of fish he is 3betting might be better, but I don't like coldcalling much at all. The flop play is an easy 3bet. They both like their hands and aren't going anywhere, just jam it.

I think that your description of this player being a 'fish' really doens't give proper anaylisis to his/her play. Even players that can be labeled 'fish' have different tendancies. With about 15 outs you will improve your hand a lil over 50% of the time. Depending on how the players play I want to extract my money out of the turn. If three betting here on the flop means that they will always check to me on the turn I won't three bet it on the flop. The reason being you are drawing to a baby flush either player can easily be betting a bigger flush draw. A bad scenario (depending on how they play) is for you to three bet, have them both smooth call and then when the turn hits just check in front of you forcing you to bet and get check raised. Then your going to be confused as to where your at in the hand and be giving up money in the long run. But this depends on how they play, I will more often then not smooth call the flop, if a straight card hits I'll raise the turn, and if a diamond comes depending on the action ahead of me i'll smooth call or raise. (Remember try to extract the money out of a hand on the turn if possible) -Andrew

[bakku]

what everyone said pf. and omg this is like the easiest flop 3-bet evaaaaar!

Yea if you just decide to be reckless and not try to maximize value. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] The point is here that you have a lot of ways to improve but if you just keep raising the flop you may mis valuable bets on the turn as well as, I think the better play here (depending on how they play) I'll raise the turn even if it's a blank and it looks like no one was helped by the card such as a nine [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. And in this way if Axxx of diamonds is in the pot I have a chance if we both miss our diamonds on the river to make a bad queen fold or a middle pp such as tens or jacks or ace king. One of the other benefits of this play is if I do get called down taking control of the hand on the turn with a raise and get called on the river bluffing, the action I will recieve from these players from here on out on the turn will be ridiculous (usually), next time i'll make a similar turn raise play with the nut straight or whatever and I will pick up a lot more bets when they are drawing dead than i should. Obviously depending on how these people play. I think the turn is the way to go, unless these people keep betting no matter what with wahtever hands they have or are trying represent, and even then the better play might be to just wait till u hit a card and raise if they play that bad. -Andrew

[DeeJ]

pf is fine. 3-bet for value for an excellent draw and to try to push out gutshots or weak pairs eg 66 or lower. You won't push out flush draws and you probably won't succeed in pushing out gutshots, but it depends on the players.

I think you guys are still missing the point you don't just three bet cause you have a great draw you still must find the way to maximize vaule from the draw. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] And also how to be able to get away from this hand if there is a bigger hand out there. The hand I worry about is bigger diamonds which rapes me on the turn if i three bet it on the flop and the turn is a diamond and they check to me and i get check raised. The problem there is what do i do if the big blind check raises the turn when the K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] comes out? Re raise and put him on king queen so he can cap it with Ax [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or instead just smooth call and let his Ace [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and Queen of [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] get there? Or throw the hand away thinking i'm beat? Do you guys start to see the problem. Remember just because you had hand that will improve about 50% or more of teh time doesn't mean its an instant winner. Instead the best thing to do is just call two bets, and besides with the big blind betting, and the UTG+1 player raising I want to let them have control and have the action naturally go back to the big blind to see if HE three bets. He may have a hand as good as Ace of diamond, Eight of Diamonds here..... Just raising the flop cause you have a 'good draw' is a nooblet move and you won't make as much money as you could in the long run.... ::sigh:: [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]....-Andrew

The problem with everyone elses anaylisis thus far is that no one really is making warrants to their claims. Like goofball saying he 'doesn't like cold calling much at all' if your going to propose a different way of playing the hand providing some reasonable idea of why you make that play would help please.... (Free speech is overrated) [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]... -ANdrew

[hobbsmann]

dude, you suck. Seriously do what expected value is? 3-betting this flop with a huge draw IS the most profitable play and it is not even close.