30/60 very standard QQ question

Nightwish · #1 06-24-2005, 01:38 PM

This is a sort of back to basics question. UTG+1 is a bad player, too loose and too aggressive. His stats are 40.4/20.53/1.61 over 151 hands.

What's my line of action here for the rest of the hand? Call down? Fold? Try some check-raise move?

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $30.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 4 folds, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, CO folds, Button folds, Hero.......

Fianchetto · #2 06-24-2005, 01:57 PM

Against a player with tight aggressive stats I'm check folding the turn. Against the player you describe I've been calling these down.

I don't see much point to check raising; he may have the sense to get away from a jack or smaller pocket pair, but you're never gonna make him him fold a hand that is beating you.

Nightwish · #3 06-24-2005, 02:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Against a player with tight aggressive stats I'm check folding the turn. Against the player you describe I've been calling these down.

I don't see much point to check raising; he may have the sense to get away from a jack or smaller pocket pair, but you're never gonna make him him fold a hand that is beating you.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you about check-raising. That would be a real bonehead move.

But I'm curious about the notion of calling the flop raise by a TAG with the intention of check-folding the turn. You're getting 15.5:1 to call on the flop, so if you're calling to spike a Q, you're relying on implied odds to make up the difference. Do you think you'll be able to get another 7 SB out of a TAG heads up if you spike a Q? Or would you be calling the flop mostly for metagame considerations, i.e. you don't want people to feel that they can just raise you on the flop and get you to fold?

Fianchetto · #4 06-24-2005, 02:50 PM

I do it mostly for metagame purposes, since I also do this in smaller pots too. Some guys are capable of raising the flop with a jack or pocket pair as well as an ace; but if they follow through and bet the turn I'm more convinced that I'm beat.

With a weaker hand and last position I've occasionally seen players do this "raise the flop/check the turn/call a river bet" combo with something they want to showdown cheap like KJ for instance. I dunno, maybe calling those flop raises is a one small bet leak for me.

It looks pretty close in your hand though, let's see, 7SB to make up. If you spike a queen, checkraise the turn, and get called on the river, that's 6SB. Plus you've got runner runner straight possibility. I think with that plus the metagame issue makes calling the flop raise ok.

MrStretchie · #5 06-24-2005, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Against a player with tight aggressive stats I'm check folding the turn. Against the player you describe I've been calling these down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against this player call down? Is 3-betting the flop an option? Check-fold the turn if capped, lead, fold to raise if called?
(I agree with your TAG line. TAGline.. I suppose that one's been done.)

mab_nyc69 · #6 06-24-2005, 03:31 PM

you are out of position so if you reraise and then he calls....you will need to bet again on the turn or he will be betting into you regardless. I like just calling him down given his vpip.

Nightwish · #7 06-25-2005, 01:56 AM

I called him down all the way. The turn and river were some random cards.

He flipped over A6o for the winner. I just couldn't fold against a guy with his stats, though I'm sure I have to fold against someone like him in this situation some percentage of the time.

17percent · #8 06-25-2005, 03:16 AM

i dont like the 3 bet pre-flop.. with 4 players in your just begging to get chased down making the pot bigger (out of position) preflop. just calling would make it an easier fold if you dont like the flop, keeping this pot small preflop also gives you a better chance to cut down the field with a check raise on the flop or turn(if you like the flop).. just my opinion

Nightwish · #9 06-25-2005, 03:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like the 3 bet pre-flop.. with 4 players in your just begging to get chased down making the pot bigger (out of position) preflop. just calling would make it an easier fold if you dont like the flop, keeping this pot small preflop also gives you a better chance to cut down the field with a check raise on the flop or turn(if you like the flop).. just my opinion

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, this is completely wrong. Poker is a game of capitalizing on your opponents' mistakes. I almost certainly have the best hand preflop. Passing up on the extra 1.5 BB preflop just because I'm afraid that I will get overflopped would be a huge error.