I played this hand so bad

[ QUOTE ]
So UTG raises and you minraise around 1/3 of your stack in the pot. Could you possibly scream out your hand more? Might as well turn the hand over, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it really give your hand away though?

I agree with what Sirio and an earlier poster suggested, a smallish reraise and a thought of what level your opponent might be thinking at.

Would you think that your opponent thinks that you think you are reraising to try and steal the pot?

Would you think that your opponent thinks that you would reraise for value in this position?

Have you been aggressively stealing from other players? Have you been trying to aggressively steal and bluff against this player recently?

I think this is one of those situations where your play needs to be dictated by recent play, what your opponents have seen you do in similar circumstances, how much they believe you, and how much do they think you have been bluffing.

I don't see anything wrong with the slow play here, UNLESS, and that is a big unless, your opponent thinks that you could easily slowplay a big hand here. If true, then you have given your hand away by the cold call, rather than by the reraise. If I consider myself a strong player, and I consider my opponent to be a strong player, then I have to consider precisely that situation among his possible thoughts.

Sometimes the most deceptive play is the most straightforward play.

I almost like the smallish reraise and then the cold call on the flop if you still feel you are ahead at that point. This gets your opponent to play at least to the turn while chasing from behind, possibly playing incorrectly all the while.

[locutus2002]

Which hands are you going to call your entire stack with after raising from UTG on a final table?

It's probably (and was) the last time hero got AA in the tournament and making 5XBB with it isn't going to alter anything.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I decided to flat call with AA

[/ QUOTE ]

With these stacks I like to mini-raise vs good players, they just can resist the pot odds. Preflop, and then in the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

what else do you min raise there with?

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
Which hands are you going to call your entire stack with after raising from UTG on a final table?

It's probably (and was) the last time hero got AA in the tournament and making 5XBB with it isn't going to alter anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Making 5 BB isn't going to alter anythign??? 20BB's at a final table is more than enough to get yourself in contention for first.. and a significant increase from 15bb's.. Not to mention the fact that UTG is going to call a decent amount of the time, he'd call TT+, AKo+, and maaaybe AQs+. He's getting like 1.75:1 he's not going to just toss his hand away that easily.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
So UTG raises and you minraise around 1/3 of your stack in the pot. Could you possibly scream out your hand more?

[/ QUOTE ]

So what !!, this is not relevant in this very specific situation , the pot has about 51k, and your opponent has only about 36k left !!!, just do it, works about 99.99% of the time, and of course every time they call preflop and they bet or call my bet in the flop they knew .

[ QUOTE ]
but people will generally play very correct with you... IE they will call the minraise and either outflop AA or pickup a draw that can overtake AA later.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly the point, people will not play correctly. You are telling me that is correct to call the 12k miniraise with your "monster" implied odds?. Pot is 37k (before they call the 12k) and I have about 36k left, so they'll risk 12k to win 73k, and that is if everything goes perfectly. Are you telling me that you'll flop something better than AA with your 55 better than this odds? You said

[ QUOTE ]
will make them play extremely correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about some Math to prove your point? Something extremely correct should be easy to prove.

Besides, you're telling me that somebody with KQ

calls the miniraise PF because "it's correct" and "you win tournaments by calling that miniraise" and then

fold in a K54 flop because he knows I have AA
fold a Q34 because he know I have AA
fold a JT3 flop because he knows I have AA

[ QUOTE ]
You are right about good players not folding to the minraise. I certainly don't. You win tournaments by calling that minraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh no, you don't win tournaments by making mistakes, that's for sure.

[ QUOTE ]
I think a minraise is pretty terrible especially vs a good opponent. Vs a terrible opponent you might be able to build a nice pot preflop and tie them to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are just too many flops when they are behind that are going to tie them. I understand your point about continuation bets, but I think you're right if he makes continuation bets 100% of the time, but then we're not talking about a good player, are we?. Your line is fine Jason, I just think my line work with all the players (to get the extra 12k), and your line does not work with a bunch of good players, and usually at the end of a tournament players are good. You think I have 55, the flop comes KJT and Im making a continuation bet? Hell, there are too many flops you don't win an extra chip from me with your line and your AA. And of course I'm not saying you should use the same line with all the players, you spot the player and then act accordingly.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
what else do you min raise there with?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends of the player of course. Versus a player who folds a lot post flop and not too much preflop, you add almost all the hands you are willing to play your stack with. If the player folds too much preflop after a reraise, then you just reraise more preflop with weak holdings.

[davidross]

I don't see anything wrong with this, and I'm more inclined to do it against a good player who might get off the hand if I push.

[45Player]

Maybe I’m supposed to know this but is 60k a short stack here ?
You should tell us the number of players and the average stack size.

Assuming 60 k is a shortish stack, then if you raise all-in and everybody folds,
that’s not a bad thing – you’ve increased your stack by 30%. That gives you a
bit more breathing space. Obviously you’d like to win more but 30% extra
isn’t a tragedy.

If I were very short-stacked then I believe calling is an option as you want
more players along and so you have to take a chance with AA.
However in this situation, I think calling is wrong as you’re not in very bad
shape (in relation to the blinds), and you’d prefer to get it heads-up. If you call
then there’s a fair chance the BB will come along (getting nearly 4/1). If the
button or CO has a big stack they might come along too. This is not good.

So, you have to raise. How much ?
If you know that your opponent knows that you may min-raise with a range of hands
then a min-raise is fine. But quite often an opponent will be very suspicious of a min-raise and think you have aces. So the fact that you do have aces means that a min-raise
is not a very good play. The only other option is to go all-in which is what I would do here.
The way I see it, if I go all-in and my opponent knows that I am a good aggressive player
(which I think the OP is), then what range of hands will he put me on ?
This is a matter of opinion but he could very well put me on TT up to AA, AK and even AQ.
If he has a hand like JJ he may well call the all-in (getting over 1.6/1 odds)
He may also decide that I would not do this with such a strong hand as AA which would encourage his call even more.
Also I think your opponent has to give extra weight to you having AK because this is
exactly what you would do with AK in this situation. So he may even call with a medium pair.

Any criticism appreciated.

Regards

45

[Jason Strasser]

Sigh.

The poker player inside of me hates violating my basic mantra, which is that when I make a move or do something, the absolute worst thing I can do is telegraph my hand. I also think about the minraise that people will fold AQ, KQ type hands because its so obvious you are running into a monster. I suppose they are making a slightly -EV calling the minraise with a pocket pair, but the reason I said you win tournaments by making calls like this is because its probably OK for good players to risk that extra call of the minraise in hopes of winning the huge pot instead of folding which leaves them with 40 something k versus 30 something k. It's also not -EV by hardly much, but I don't really care to do the math now. But if you did some ICM crap I'm sure it wouldnt come out to anywhere near an egregious error.

Anyway I'm sure there is some merit to your play I just wont have any of it. I'd much rather shove it all in there and let my opponent think about the wide range of hands I could have here than minraise and give my opponent the idea that his weak hand is not meant to be played that way.

It's just not good poker to play with your cards face up, sorry I can't really explain myself better today. If you had a way of working in more minraises in this spot with a wider range of hands I might buy it... But as you can probably tell there are some pretty serious problems with minraising a lot preflop with stacks like this without a hand you want to go to the felt with... I really feel like minraising is worse than calling and worse than an all in.

-Jason

[bugstud]

shania likes it if you would do it with hands other than AA. Holdem_nl might be one of the few guys that would respect this and fold a big hand, esoecially against you.