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  #1  
Old 12-21-2005, 08:53 AM
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Default Pocket JJ, Is A on the turn a check behind

Villain is 32/16/1.5 over 80 hands. I checked behind on the turn when the A came up, worrying that villain was playing Ax and I would get check raised. Villain then bet river and I called. Is there any benefit from betting the turn here, or is my check behind the better line?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 raises, 4 folds, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+2 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 6.70 BB
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  #2  
Old 12-21-2005, 09:55 AM
Pharity Pharity is offline
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Default Re: Pocket JJ, Is A on the turn a check behind

With KK or QQ i could accept a turn check, since he is a LAG - who probably bets a lot of hands on the river if you check and possibly is capable of checkraising a worse hand. But JJ with 2 overcards, i think your holding is too vulnerable to give him a free card. I would rather bet/fold and hope he won't take a shot at me with a worse hand. But maybe that's far fetched since he is OOP.
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  #3  
Old 12-21-2005, 10:34 AM
pipster pipster is offline
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Default Re: Pocket JJ, Is A on the turn a check behind

This is a spot I have a lot of trouble in and end up being to aggressive I think. I am interested to hear what other people have to say...

I check behind on the turn. I am willing to put in 1 more bet on this hand. If he C/R's me I fold. I think I am beat a large percentage of the time on this turn/board. I could be betting into a made straight, draw that won't fold, Ax, etc.

So I check behind and check/call a river bet. My thinking is most hands I will beat will fold (except draws), and most hands I am losing to will cost me 2-3 more bets. And I can see a lot of people C/Ring with a draw on this board as well. So maybe I can induce a bluff from a weaker hand/missed draw on the river, and win an extra bet I would have lost... and save an extra bet or two when I am beat.
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  #4  
Old 12-21-2005, 10:44 AM
Aces McGee Aces McGee is offline
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Default Re: Pocket JJ, Is A on the turn a check behind

[ QUOTE ]
And I can see a lot of people C/Ring with a draw on this board as well

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a possibility, of course, but I'm almost never c/r by a draw in these spots. Only the trickiest of opponents will c/r here.

[ QUOTE ]
I am willing to put in 1 more bet on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not do it on the turn, then? By checking behind, you're giving free cards to six-out hands (KQ, 77) or hands with even more outs (big diamonds, 66).

-McGee
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  #5  
Old 12-21-2005, 10:46 AM
Nick C Nick C is offline
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Default Re: Pocket JJ, Is A on the turn a check behind

There's a really strong likelihood that, on the turn, you have 2 outs or Villain has 2-3 outs.

Villain seems somewhat aggressive, and I like the check, which encourages a river bet from Villain if he's the one who's drawing. It's entirely possible he'll bet the river with a losing hand he wouldn't have called the turn with.

Your chances of being ahead on the turn aren't all that good, which is part of the reason I like the turn check.
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  #6  
Old 12-21-2005, 10:50 AM
Nick C Nick C is offline
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Default Re: Pocket JJ, Is A on the turn a check behind

[ QUOTE ]
So I check behind and check/call a river bet. My thinking is most hands I will beat will fold (except draws), and most hands I am losing to will cost me 2-3 more bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you bet the turn, you should fold to a checkraise.

Occasionally you'll get checkraise-bluffed or checkraise-semibluffed here, but keep in mind that Villain is checkraising a preflop 3-bettor with an ace on the board.
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  #7  
Old 12-21-2005, 10:56 AM
pipster pipster is offline
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Default Re: Pocket JJ, Is A on the turn a check behind

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I can see a lot of people C/Ring with a draw on this board as well

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a possibility, of course, but I'm almost never c/r by a draw in these spots. Only the trickiest of opponents will c/r here.

Hmmm... and this is a common thing for me to do. Not sure if that is good or bad. I will c/r the turn and lead the river if I miss my draw. maybe it is a leak. I don't do it often... just into the face of a weak player.

[ QUOTE ]
I am willing to put in 1 more bet on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not do it on the turn, then? By checking behind, you're giving free cards to six-out hands (KQ, 77) or hands with even more outs (big diamonds, 66).

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't do it on the turn because I expect to get much fewer calls. I think the odds of someone betting with a worse hand to a check behind on the turn is greater than someone calling with a hand I beat on the turn.

Very few hands I want to fold are folding here. 66 with the OESD is calling, as is most OESD or flush draws. So if I am going to check/fold the river UI, and bet/fold the turn. What will I do if I bet and he calls the turn, and then leads the river on the 6? I either make a crying call or fold. So I haven't changed the "odds" that much. He still paid 1 bet drawing slim, and I still lost 1 bet I would have lost anyways, and only made 1 bet when he called.

I do chase out hands like KQ or Kx, but those weren't the most likely of hands here anyways.
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  #8  
Old 12-21-2005, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: Pocket JJ, Is A on the turn a check behind

I think the A on the turn is one of the trickiest spots in a raised pot because it is the perfect spot for an aggressive player to use a c/r bluff, as it will fold out a lot of pp hands (myself included)because it represents the made pair of A. That's why I checked behind because I would have folded to a c/r and I didn't want to be in that position
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  #9  
Old 12-21-2005, 12:24 PM
Aces McGee Aces McGee is offline
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Default Re: Pocket JJ, Is A on the turn a check behind

He's not always going to take a shot on the river when you check behind.

It's not just about him not folding hands you want him to fold. If you don't charge him to draw out on you, then you're not making up the bets for the times he gets there.

-McGee
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  #10  
Old 12-21-2005, 12:33 PM
W. Deranged W. Deranged is offline
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Default Re: Pocket JJ, Is A on the turn a check behind

I think betting here is correct against probably 85% of opponents. Many have outlined why that's the case.

There is about 15% of opponents who are really laggy here in which case I would use a "defensive check." Basically, those are the 15% against whom I WOULD NOT feel comfortable folding to a turn check-raise. If I can't fold to a check-raise, I'm not going to bet. Putting yourself in a position of either folding the best hand a lot or paying 3 BB to get to showdown against a better hand really sucks.


So I think it's important to note there ARE times where checking is going to be correct here. It's our job to identify the opponents against whom that would be correct.
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