Weak 4th street check?

[BeerMoney]

Is this why i suck? Table was fairly tight.

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls___calls
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___calls
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls

4th Street - (10.70 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (7.85 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___folds

6th Street - (11.85 BB)

Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___raises
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls

River - (15.85 BB)

Hero: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___calls

Total pot: (17.85 BB)

[Jeffage]

What is this obsession with limp raising on 3rd street now? Just raise and hopefully play heads up with a smaller pair. This is not a hand I'm looking to build a volume pot with, but you apparently are. And that's exactly what you got.

Definitely bet 4th street and try to clear the field a bit. On 5th, calling is debateable after you get raised. He may have kings up or hit two pair on 5th. Or he may have kings and a gutshot. I prob fold here, but that's me.

Nice catch on 6th...I think you sucked out on 2 pair but I could be wrong. I'm very busy now so apologize if this post doesn't make sense.

Jeff

[MRBAA]

I think you raise your jacks right away on third when you are first to act to thin the field if possible. Then, if you still have four opponents and they catch and ace and king, you bet again, call a raise if it happens and check fold fifth unimproved. This assumes the other players are fairly reasonable, not hyper-aggressive maniacs.

[BeerMoney]

18 BB's is a nice return for kings up, don't you think? Is it irrelevant to talk about results here?

By completing third, what hands do I get to fold that I'm happy with folding? Isn't it better to get two bets with the best hand, from hands that would fold if they saw what I had?

Def. raise coming in. By limping and re-raising, you have 'trapped' the field in a biggish pot--with two jacks. I get sick to my stomach when I get 4 or 5 callers with aces. And look what happened, you put yourself in a bad spot on fourth. After having a hand you thought was strong enough to reraise on third, you are suddenly checking on fourth! On third you made the pot big enough so everyone was supposed to call, now you give them all a free card. Yikes. I don't mind checking on fourth to 'see where I am', or to get in a check raise to thin the field, but not after I have taken such a strong stance. I call the raise on 5th, Qs and Js are semi-dead, so a straight isn't a sure thing there.

[BeerMoney]

Well, I didn't mention it, but a fairly tight playerin the 8 seat called a completion with a with a 3 of spades as his door, and spades were completely live. I think falling into the trap of betting someones four flush would have been a mistake. Failing to recognize that some of my opponents may have caught nicely would be a mistake IMO. What would you do if one of your opponents paired his doorcard? Do you still lead out and bet?

pairs door? check---cry---fold---wish I hadn't put in two bets on third.

Disclaimer part two: I really am idiot, I answered a 5 Stud question with 7 Stud earlier [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

I would probably raise straight from the get-go on 3rd. This is because I do not want my Jacks tested by 5-6 players random holdings that they may consider just good enough to peel one off. Were you going for the call/reraise? Or, was that a result of Seat 5 raising? We know your Hearts are dead, so we surely do not want many people in the pot.

Well... they all called. On 4th we see a King die and an Ace hit (along with more dead hearts and a load of dead possible straightening cards, if you were to have been lucky). Would seat 8 check/raise Aces in this position? Check/call with them? There is only one other overcard out, and all the other boards look pretty shabby (as in, except 6 and 8). My thinking is that 8 probably did not make Aces. Further, if he just made a four-flush, we know three of his cards are dead. (So, he is drawing to 6 cards instead of 9 - given that, we would really like to be heads-up or short-handed with him here.)

Seat 6 is a weird one. We now have reason to doubt he has Tens and a reason to doubt his Kings. Further, if he does have Tens, we are in really good shape now. We also have a good reason to doubt a straight draw. In general, though I am not sure what he has, I think I could often have him beat here. If he does have Kings, we have a bit of a problem though...

Seat 2 appears to have a complete shambles. Of course, he still called the 3rd street completion and raise. Seat 5 only called the raise on 3rd - either he is happy multiway or thinking that he probably should not have completed.

I think you bet out here, hoping to fold as much as possible. You are most likely buying equity, even if you are not in there with the best hand. I do not think you are going to beat 4 hands at 7th. However, I think you probably have the best hand here - at least with reasonable frequency.

Further, I think you should raise when seat 6 decides you are not going to just sit there and all see how nice of a hand we can make. If you had made the original bet, anyone with a decent hand in 5, 6 or 8 would have helped your reduce the participant count here. I don't think the uncertainty we buy by not following up on the 3rd raise is worth it in this situation.

On 5th, well... now we have a mess. Just about every opponent *could* have you beat here. Probably they do not, but they all now have overcards to your pair. Further, you are going to have to act in front of seat 6. (Which is good, because you would be in really bad shape if you didn't [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). We are now trying to thin a field where we hold a really good chance of being beaten. When he chooses to raise you here, I think I am done with it. I am not sure I would have bet it, anyway.

On 6th you catch a really nice card. Not only do you know that there is barely anything he can hold that you do not beat, but you have him scared after your check/raise. From here on it's obvious, but really: I would complete 3rd, bet 4th and probably check/fold or bet/fold 5th. (I am not sure check/folding 5th is a good play, I am just saying that I would probably do it.)

If you don't agree, please tell me why. Thank you. If it's not logically consistent, that's because it got long and these edit boxes are really small - so, just go with the general flow.

[ QUOTE ]
18 BB's is a nice return for kings up, don't you think? Is it irrelevant to talk about results here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that pulling off that much money with Kings-up is indeed impressive. However, I think that somebody will beat you in this pot more often than not if played this way. The result is very nice, but is it consistently replicable?

does this hand get posted if he shows you the straight?