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#32
09-21-2005, 08:11 PM
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Re: Hand vs. Joe Cassidy
i wonder what Joe Cassidy's BB/100 is at the party 30/60?
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#33
09-21-2005, 08:15 PM
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Re: Hand vs. Joe Cassidy
First of all EZCheeze great hand to post, very entertaining please keep the live high limit hands coming. (Please!)...Im not sure I have much to add about the actual hand that hasnt been said. Everything u did seems logical, but probably not standard. My guess is that he had a weak K
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#35
09-21-2005, 08:50 PM
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Re: the river
Maybe Joe Cassidy has never done it, but I myself have on several occasions check raised the flop in this spot as a bluff and given up on the turn. I'll lead the turn some portion of the time of course, but giving up some of the time has to be right. Stuff like this happens from time to time as part of an overall solid strategy. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit here but I don't think so.
By the way, I bet the river of course and he immediately got a pained look on his face. As he looked back at his cards he accidently knocked some chips in the pot but scooped them back saying "that's not a call, I'm still not sure if I'm gonna raise". Eventually he folded K6o face up and I showed him my hand. You had some excellent reads that were dead on in this hand. An interesting thing to note about this hand is that if I call the turn I have 8 outs but it turns out by 3 betting and calling a 4th bet I now have 12 outs to win. It certainly wasn't worth the extra 2 bets in this hand though. Part of the reason for making a play like this is to reap the rewards in future hands. It'll be pretty hard for him to fold anything to a turn 3 bet by me in a similar spot, and he may even give excess action where he shouldn't. The times I like to pick to do this are when I think I have a high enough immediate value with the play in the given hand. Theoretically, you could pick a time the was pure chip spewing for that hand as long as you do it rarely enough and it actually has the desired effect on your opponent for a long time. It looks to me like you tend to give your opponents credit for only their most obvious hands. This works fine against most people becuase they don't try to mix things up much. Especially since they don't understand the idea that making a -EV play in a given hand is ok if it will get you even more +EV in other hands. Alot of poeple understand that idea when playing no limit, but in limit games it still applies only to a lesser degree. When playing agianst certain players, especially when the pot gets larger, it isn't always true that it's significantly more likely for you to be beat. In a situation where your opponent has 3 or 4 bet you on the turn he has narrowed his hand range alot. It's almost always going to be very close to the nuts or a semi-bluff/bluff. A very important concept to understand is there is a huge difference between someone whoes bluffing range when 3 or more betting the turn is nil, and someone who bluffs there even a small portion of the time. This is because there are very few hands that are close to the nuts so if you throw in a few extra hands that are bluffs then those hands become extremely likely, and can even dominate the hand range. In this hand, Joe only gave me credit for the most obvious hands. We hadn't played together much so maybe he was warrented in doing so, however it did cost him the pot.
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#39
09-21-2005, 10:07 PM
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Re: the river
I'm stunned that he folded trip kings. I never expected him to fold that.
[ QUOTE ] I'm absolutely stunned by this hand. How come everyone on the planet knows he has a monster except for the 2 people actually involved in the hand. [/ QUOTE ] Knows is a strong word. I recognized the fact that he could have a strong hand after his turn check raise, and when he 4 bet I realzied it was very likely. But considering it is a blind steal situation with two very aggressive players and the fact that you can't see his cards I don't think it's correct to say you "know" he has a monster. Also, his fold, while surprising, is still understandable. Aggressively saving bets is just as important as aggresively value betting.
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#40
09-21-2005, 10:08 PM
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Re: the river
"It looks to me like you tend to give your opponents credit for only their most obvious hands."
given that im only playing lower limits lately this is a major strength of my game. im pretty pleased with my read btw of his hand and what he would do if you bet the end. self's back, meet pat. i wish i could play 2-4 with some of those donks, er, i mean, wcps again soon... the one thing about this hand i didnt talk about, basically my initial revulsion for the turn, is the problem with assuming you have 8 clean outs. i think you have more like 5.5 or 6. he could have an A in his hand (less likely because he didnt pop it preflop) or a 9 with a pair, or one of the Qs taking up an out and spoiling the strange idea maybe if you pair up your 9 youre good. ive been in these spots before and made these reraise semibluffs. ive done it with mixed results. i totally know the value of getting what seems like way out of line. now that ive stopped basically ever doing it guys like rick and gabe and lmd have to pay me off the max for the next 50 years every time i have them beat. anyway your best play on the hand was showing him he was duped. this was one of the rare instances where that was a very valuable play.
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