Cloutier/McEvoy NL/PL/Tournament books?

[AcesKracked]

I picked up the NL/Pl book the other day and am about half way through. What are the thoughts on this series?
AcesKracked

[betgo]

Do a search. It has some good information in it, but some misinformation. There is a lot of ridiculous weak/tight advice. Of course, TJ likes to take advantage of weak/tight players. McManus doubled up against TJ and took the lead in the WSOP by letting TJ bluff, figuring McManus would fold AK on a low flop as his book recommended.

The McEvoy/Daugherty books on no limit tournaments and satelites are much better, but not very advanced. "Harrington on Holdem" is the best NLHE tournament book.

The following are some selections from Cloutier/McEvoy.

You should only reraise preflop with AA or KK.

Say you reraise with AK and get two callers. The flop comes AQQ. You should check/fold. While a good player would fold QQ to a reraise, it is likely someone called with QQ and has quads.

Making a big overbet push from late position with a small pair is a bad play. It is better to put in a standard raise. Then you can fold if you are beaten or outdrawn.

Unsuited connectors are as good as suited connectors. You are likely to lose money by making a flush that is not the nuts.

If you raise with AK and miss the flop you should fold. It is obvious your opponent(s) are ahead of you with small to medium pocket pairs.

Say you call a raise and flop a set. Your opponent leads out. You should make a big overbet raise to get your opponent to fold, so he won’t be able to catch anything to beat you. The book indicates that in particular this is the proper way to play against TJ.

Don’t try to steal in particular from late position. Late position steals are too predictable.

[avatar77]

the points made are very valid.

However, you must remember that No Limit Hold'em was played much differently when TJ's book was released.

During the pre-poker craze, most players played extremely tight. Even Dan Harrington mentions this in HOH.

Therefore, TJ's book was probably much more relevent to the game played during that era than it is played today where players generally play much more loose and aggressive.

[Hold'me]

T.J. Cloutier deserves to be shot.

[bygmesterf]

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I picked up the NL/Pl book the other day and am about half way through. What are the thoughts on this series?
AcesKracked

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The question isn't what other people think, it's what you think.

As for what I think, I think that learning the solid approach that TJ/McEvoy advocate is good starting point for a new player. Far too many people are distracted by WPT theatrics to realize that good solid play usually takes down the money.

Because Cloutier/McEvoy play mostly tournamets and before that NL/PL against tough opposition they advocate a solid style that avoids trouble.Because WPT aside, in tough game or tournament if you get out of line you will get snapped off at some point.

[AcesKracked]

my thoughts,3/4 the way through are that it is a very solid yet overly tight/passive style. I think in a large skilled tournament their game would get you near the end, but I can't see me changing my style. However, it is interesting to read multiple winning players explanation behind their play.

[JohnG]

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I picked up the NL/Pl book the other day and am about half way through. What are the thoughts on this series?
AcesKracked

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A damaging book for a newbie.

[PorscheNGuns]

The Texas Holdem book contains no chapters on No Limit cash games. Its just No Limit hold'em tournament advice and Pot Limit hold'em cash and tournament advice.

I repeat - no cash/ring game NL holdem sections.

-Matt

[betgo]

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As for what I think, I think that learning the solid approach that TJ/McEvoy advocate is good starting point for a new player. Far too many people are distracted by WPT theatrics to realize that good solid play usually takes down the money.

Because Cloutier/McEvoy play mostly tournamets and before that NL/PL against tough opposition they advocate a solid style that avoids trouble.Because WPT aside, in tough game or tournament if you get out of line you will get snapped off at some point.

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There a lot of bad loose players, but that doesn't justify a manual advocating a weak/tight approach.

There is NLHE tournament advice in Harrington, Sklansky, and the McEvoy/Daugherty books that I disagree with, but on the whole the material is correct. In this book there are many examples of bizarre and completely wrong advice. There is good material in this book, but it is hard to trust it.

[bygmesterf]

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In this book there are many examples of bizarre and completely wrong advice.

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Such as?