Challenge to those who don't like HUDs.

[OrianasDaad]

Go through your PT databases. Pick out people that use these tools. Please describe the process you use to determine which players use a HUD and those who don't.

I, for one, gain much more insight into how a player (or type of player) plays in offline study. The HUD allows me to draw on my study. The HUD itself doesn't make me a better player, the study does.

HUDs don't give TAGs a much bigger edge than they already have. I played for a month with no HUD, and didn't notice anything different about my play, or results. I bought PV because I wanted to move beyond 4-tabling, and checking notes was getting a bit frantic. (On a side note, I've moved back down to four tables, since specific player reads not provided by PV were being missed at the table. I still use PV, though.)

For those looking for a better analogy, use the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." I'd change it to "HUDs don't kill fish, TAGs kill fish.", or something like that. You get the point.

The challenge is up. Show me the stats of someone who clearly uses a HUD. Since the HUD makes them such a better player, it should be fairly easy to do, especially for someone who doesn't rely on a HUD.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm just asking people to justify it. Be objective.

[StacysMom]

i'm pro hud, but dont really understand the challenge

[OrianasDaad]

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i'm pro hud, but dont really understand the challenge

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It's my belief that it will become apparent. Patience.

[flair1239]

I get where you are coming from.

However, I think a better angle might be this: A couple years back I bought a $350 driver, because the guy at the shop said it would take 3 strokes off my game.

Well he might have been right. Now I shoot 105 instead of 108.

In other words if you suck you will continue to suck.

I love HUDs, however, I think they are most useful in table selection. I can honestly say that without a HUD I would probably spend more orbits on bad tables then I do.

[ckessel]

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I love HUDs, however, I think they are most useful in table selection. I can honestly say that without a HUD I would probably spend more orbits on bad tables then I do.

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Yep, absolutely. The paranoia about knowing someone's stats is crazy. It's the improved table selection that's really valuable. If all PE gave me was the table stats, I'd probably still subscribe. It's that useful.

Now, better table selection makes me more money, but I'm really not convinced it damages the fish. There are X sharks on the site. Whether they're dispersed through all tables or not really doesn't matter. Fish at tables with few sharks lose slowly to them. Fish at tables with lots of sharks are going to die in a hurry. The net loss by school of fish is the same, but it'll be hit and miss if a fish is on a good table (good for him, meaning few sharks).

Now, put in HUDs, sharks are going to disperse fairly evenly among the tables, meaning fish won't ever be at a shark filled table, which means their money is going to last longer.

[revots33]

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I love HUDs, however, I think they are most useful in table selection. I can honestly say that without a HUD I would probably spend more orbits on bad tables then I do.

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This pretty much sums up in a nutshell why I don't think these programs are fair. You're using information that is only available to a small minority, to avoid the tougher players and prey on the weak ones. While this might be good for your bottom line, I don't see how it is good for the game as a whole.

As for the OP's challenge, I don't get it.

[ckessel]

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You're using information that is only available to a small minority, to avoid the tougher players and prey on the weak ones.

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See, I'm not sure that's true. Let's say there's 2 tables online and 20 players. 2 of the 20 are sharks.

No HUD, both sharks are at table 1. The sharks won't tend to bump against each other much because they play few hands. The fish are hurting though because they have 2 players than know how to play and are going to punish the fish for mistakes. Fish at table 1 are clearly worse off.

At table 2, fish are just shoving money back and forth and the rake is bleeding them very very slowly.

Now, bring in HUDs and the 2 sharks see each other and end up on separate tables (better table selection). Now, the fish and table 1 are better off because there's only 1 shark instead of 2. The fish at table 2 are slightly worse as now they have a shark. But the two are offsetting as far as the net effect on the fish. 1 table gains a shark, the other loses one.

Sharks lose out when they end up at the same table as once in a while they'll be against each other, but I'm really not sure fish lose out in any meaningful way.

[Freudian]

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See, I'm not sure that's true. Let's say there's 2 tables online and 20 players. 2 of the 20 are sharks.

No HUD, both sharks are at table 1. The sharks won't tend to bump against each other much because they play few hands. The fish are hurting though because they have 2 players than know how to play and are going to punish the fish for mistakes. Fish at table 1 are clearly worse off.

At table 2, fish are just shoving money back and forth and the rake is bleeding them very very slowly.

Now, bring in HUDs and the 2 sharks see each other and end up on separate tables (better table selection). Now, the fish and table 1 are better off because there's only 1 shark instead of 2. The fish at table 2 are slightly worse as now they have a shark. But the two are offsetting as far as the net effect on the fish. 1 table gains a shark, the other loses one.

Sharks lose out when they end up at the same table as once in a while they'll be against each other, but I'm really not sure fish lose out in any meaningful way.

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But what would really happen is that both sharks would stay at the table they are on (since it has 8 fishes) and also join the table full with fishes.

[revots33]

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Sharks lose out when they end up at the same table as once in a while they'll be against each other, but I'm really not sure fish lose out in any meaningful way.


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The fish lose out because the sharks can now easily find the tables with lots of fish, and multitable them. It's obviously not a good thing for the fish if the good players can use software to quickly target them.

I'm just not sure I'm buying the whole "the fish would lose their money eventually anyway" argument. That doesn't make it any more fair. A fish at a table full of other fish, has a lot better shot than a fish at a table with 2-3 sharks who found him using HUDs.

[Mr_RC]

I've quit using GT+ for the time being and I actually think it's not a good thing for my opponents. I'm not a great player, but without the HUD I find myself paying much more attention to the game, taking notes, and examining hand histories after each hand.

This has to be +EV long term.

If you want the stats for a HUD user, just pick someone at random from your database. The choice to use a HUD has little to do with winning poker.