Gazes Call with AK after 2 all ins 4 handed

[Dynasty]

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If the TT guy had won the hand then I think the JJ guy (minh) would have stil had chips left so Gazes could STILL have finished in 4th place couldn't he?

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It seemed like he had barely enough to cover one orbit. Gazes would have had him severely outchipped.

[MicroBob]

I just saw the post that evidently the two shorter stacks had EXACTLY the same number of chips.
I thought there was a little difference between the two (and perhaps there was).

either way...I think it's worth a call.


If he folds he's pretty badly behind and will likely have 3rd place money (if the short-stacks really ARE even then it's a virtual guarantee unless they split).

If he plays then he is still almost guaranteed 3rd place money.
Even if the chip-counts are a bit off and perhaps one of them has $10k or so in chips and is hanging around in 4th palce (and Gazes is left with $50k) he still has a strong enough chance for 3rd place money.


In a 4-handed game I think this situation is almost guaranteed to be a call.
Very possible for one player to have KQ and the other to have a weak-ace.
Or for both to have pocket-pairs and the AK to be almost in a coin-flip to practically triple-up.
4-handed there just isn't a huge chance that he's up against KK or AA.


Obvious plays like this that are completely misanalyzed by the general public (and Norman Chad) are the reason why MTT's can be so profitable for the better players (of which I am not one yet unfortunately).

[Quake1028]

[ QUOTE ]
I just saw the post that evidently the two shorter stacks had EXACTLY the same number of chips.
I thought there was a little difference between the two (and perhaps there was).

either way...I think it's worth a call.


If he folds he's pretty badly behind and will likely have 3rd place money (if the short-stacks really ARE even then it's a virtual guarantee unless they split).

If he plays then he is still almost guaranteed 3rd place money.
Even if the chip-counts are a bit off and perhaps one of them has $10k or so in chips and is hanging around in 4th palce (and Gazes is left with $50k) he still has a strong enough chance for 3rd place money.


In a 4-handed game I think this situation is almost guaranteed to be a call.
Very possible for one player to have KQ and the other to have a weak-ace.
Or for both to have pocket-pairs and the AK to be almost in a coin-flip to practically triple-up.
4-handed there just isn't a huge chance that he's up against KK or AA.


Obvious plays like this that are completely misanalyzed by the general public (and Norman Chad) are the reason why MTT's can be so profitable for the better players (of which I am not one yet unfortunately).

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I agree. I loved the call.

[SixgunSam]

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I think this is what Minh is thinking, which sounds like the standard play:
"A champion knows something that the average person doesn’t. He knows that a favorable situation will come up for him soon enough and he knows when he is in that situation. Of course, when player 1 raises, player 2 moves all-in and then player 3 calls, it is time for everyone to throw away their A-K, whether they are average, bad or a champion player!"
-Phil Hellmuth
It's a debatable topic whether the so-called standard play is indeed correct, but I think this line of thinking is what inspired Minh's reaction.

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This quote from Phil is correct in a general sense and is usually the correct play. There was a big difference in the dynamics of this hand compared to the standard situation described in the quote. I think that the only reason Mihn was upset was because instead of being 6:1 favorite all-in, he's slightly less than even money. I'm sure he would have made the same call had the roles been reversed.

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Does everyone agree that it was a stupid call?


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As we have seen, not everyone agrees. I would not say it was a 'stupid' call. Gazes was reacting to events based on alot of factors. Most we did not see -- such as the overall history of that table and how strong or weak he felt one or both of the other players were.

Personally, I do not feel he should have called and he put himself in a position to gamble for the chip lead. I don't fault him for that but in that spot I would have thrown the hand away.

[primetime32]

If he felt he wasn't good enough to outplay his opponents, then it was a good call. otherwise, the call seems shaky at best. He had to figure that the best case scenario has him at about a 30-35 percent to win the hand. That is if one player had 44 and another had AQ.

So by calling, he is saying that he knows he will probably lose the hand, but that the gamble to obtain a big chip advantage was worth the risk. Not exactly, the way i would want to go out, knowing that i am that far behind.

If he stays out of the hand he is asssured 3rd place and would have 400,000 chips compared to his opponents at approx 800,000 and 1.7mill. Not exactly a good position, but not awful. Not nearly bad enough to risk your entire tournament life, when you know you will likely lose.

[TheBlueMonster]

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(2) Calling with the right pot odds with third place "locked up" and a chance to nearly catch Seif in chips and play him heads-up.


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This is the more likely reason for the call.
Had this occured earlier in the tournament or even earlier in final table play I think he would have folded in 2 seconds.

[Angelic_Ace]

It's an easy call. Like others have said, you could very well be up against Ax and a pair, in which case youre about 40% to triple up and knock out 2 players. Even if youre against two non KK AA pairs, youre 2 to 1 on your money. I think Gazes really wanted 1st, and AK looked pretty good 4 handed. I was surprised Nguyen was giving him crap about it, I think he was just mad that he had to race against 2 hands.

[Beavis68]

Who is Phil Hellmuth?

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is what Minh is thinking, which sounds like the standard play:
"A champion knows something that the average person doesn’t. He knows that a favorable situation will come up for him soon enough and he knows when he is in that situation. Of course, when player 1 raises, player 2 moves all-in and then player 3 calls, it is time for everyone to throw away their A-K, whether they are average, bad or a champion player!"
-Phil Hellmuth
It's a debatable topic whether the so-called standard play is indeed correct, but I think this line of thinking is what inspired Minh's reaction.

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[BarronVangorToth]

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Here's the payout:
1st place $611,145
2nd place - $329,975
3rd place - $202,790
4th place - $175,010

Here are the approximate chip stacks before the hand.
Mark Seif $1,750,000
Gazes $450,000
Nguyen $400,000
Kang $400,000

This information was pieced together from the Cardplayer live updates section.

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This looks about right as far as the chip counts go as I remember 3rd and 4th being "tied" in money. This meant that either by folding OR calling, he was still guaranteed at least 3rd since one of them would be getting knocked out.

He played to win: if he found himself in that exact situation 1,000,000 times against the wide range of hands that could be making those plays that short-handed, he's definitely +EV to call.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com