Is Playing Poker Professionally Ethical?

Here's what I said:

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The deception involved in the gameplay of poker is not unethical. Nor is taking the money of people who choose to gamble with you and also attempt to take your money.

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I do believe using a computer program to record detailed statistics of another player, rate them, and display this information in real time is unethical and against the TOS, since a)they don't know about it or consent to it b)you have to pay money to be able to do this c)you're using a computer to profile opponents for you in a way you couldn't reasonably do yourself. This is against the stated intentions of Party Poker and the reasonable expectations of those playing there.

Anyway I don't wish to derail this thread, please rag on me in the other thread.

About the ethics of poker, here's what I said:

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Where I think the unethical element comes in is the effect that poker has on society. This only matters to people who care about what effect their actions ultimately have on the rest of the world.

The bottom line is that you're not producing anything when you play poker. You're taking money off others and providing nothing in return. Ethics of poker aside, how can any self respecting person accept this as their profession?

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In other words, poker itself is not unethical, but it does have detrimental effects which you can choose to care about. Or not.

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If anything it is just the OPPOSITE!! Big losers come in out of the pits to play poker and SLOW the burn from their losses at black jack, craps, etc. I can't tell you how many times a guy sits in my game and tells me he just lost 30k playing black jack.
You're also WAY overestimating how many people can't afford their poker losses.

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Fair enough. You make good points. It'd be good if we had some actual studies.

Also, live poker is different to online poker in many ways. I don't see anywhere near as much of a problem with live poker, and there is definitely entertainment and social value there.

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What benefits am I left with after paying money to see one of Robert Deniro's movies?

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It's not about the benefits that you get, but the benefits that acting or baseball as a profession provides society, as compared to playing poker...

[Darryl_P]

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The bottom line is that you're not producing anything when you play poker. You're taking money off others and providing nothing in return. Ethics of poker aside, how can any self respecting person accept this as their profession?

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I haven't read the whole thread but if this is the bottom line, let me answer it...

The western world has too much stuff as it is, so I don't feel obliged to create more. The thing western people need the most IMO is to slow down, think more deeply and stop being slaves to an oppressive system that just gobbles up peoples' souls and spits them out. Playing poker is one way to do that and is therefore a positive thing and tends to move humanity forwards rather than backwards, albeit indirectly.

And if you argue that the third world needs help, then that pretty much renders 99% of all jobs in America unethical.

[JimMorris]

You make good points, but each of our comments are based on assumptions about the percentage breakdown of the types of players contributing to the game. I wonder if any studies have been done to determine this breakdown. I think it would be worthwhile research, although I'm not sure exactly how to go about arriving at accurate numbers.

Depending on your personality and experience, you could assume that the majority of online players are addicted frustrated losing gamblers, or you could assume that the majority of online players have expendible income, expect to lose, and are happy with the experience.

In the end, there is probabably a wide variety of categories of losing players. As I stated in a seperate post:

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The beauty of pure mathematical and psychological competition are degraded when people are deceived into addiction by misrepresentation and glamorization of the game (especially on TV).

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Any ways in which we can cut down on the number of people in this category would improve the game in my opinion. (despite lowering our hourly rates)

[Eidal]

Am I the only one here who doesn't give a damn about anyone, minor or not, who sits down at a poker table and loses their money? Humans have the ability to learn and poker tables are called object lessons. Those that are uncapable of learning don't garner any sympathy in my eyes -- they are weaker and if they have to suffer in order to realize this weakness... well, thats life and life isn't fair or just. And to those of you who think that the strong don't prey on the weak...

Open your eyes.

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Am I the only one here who doesn't give a damn about anyone, minor or not, who sits down at a poker table and loses their money?

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I'm with you. And call it rationalization if you must, but a fool and his money are soon departed. So, I'd rather it departs into my wallet than someone else's. And this stuff about the advertising of the game "luring" people who think its easy, well that's no different than advertising FOR ANYTHING! Jaguars won't make you cool, beer won't get bikini-clad chicks knocking down your door, body spray won't get you laid, McDonald's [censored]-burgers won't make you happy, and on and on and on. It's individual responsibility to realize that advertising glorifies. If someone wants to be Gus Hansen and thinks poker is "so cool and fun and simple", let him give it a shot. Humans have the capability to adapt and learn if they so choose.

[WichitaDM]

Well as a poker proffesional for the last 2-3 yrs i look at it like this. My life is 100x better now than it was working for the corporate juggernaut. Lets be honest most companies prey on the weak minded just like a good poker player. So in turn how is it more ethical to go work for a corporation who is a money grubbing, win at all costs entity, but not moral to work for yourself playing a game for money. Isnt this what our athletes do in this country??? They waste years of their life and tons of money training to hopefully one day become a pro athelete. The odds of someone doing that vs a succesful pro poker career is far worse. Ultimately for me, all i need to look at is my life before and after poker. Here we go. I am now a 24 yr old grad student, who has a bachelors in finance.

Before poker here were my facts of life
-Worked 40hrs a week at a entry leve corporate job
-Living paycheck to paycheck
-Occasionally having to borrow money from family and friends
-Was told when and where to be by my employer
-In massive debt
-No savings
-No ability to travel or really obtain anything beyond the basics in life

After Poker
-Have a net worth well over 100k
-Own a 200k house
-Have no debt
-Have more time i can spend with family and friends
-Am the richest person my age i know
-Travel all the time
-Am my own boss

Frankly the corporate world works just like poker. There is deception and dishonesty. There are good breaks and bad. In the end its all about money, just like poker. If we kid ourselves and say that "at least corps produce something" we really miss the pt that many corps produce HARMFUL things(ie most food companies, cigs, alcohol, drugs, WMD [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], etc. The only thing that makes many corporate jobs more "ethical" is the social stigma that poker players have. While many players are chasing a quick buck, hookers, and coke, this is certainly not true for even most of us. We do PRODUCE when we have more time to enrich ours and other lives through helping people with our free time and helping people through giving money to the needy. We do PRODUCE when we pay our taxes, Ill bet the average poker proffesional who is honest and pays taxes pays more in that the average corporate desk jockey. Anyways in conclusion i dont see anything morally wrong with poker, just like i dont see anything wrong with the corps, our society is built on opportunism, which is at the heart of what poker ultimately is.

[Aytumious]

Did you grow up in a socialist country?

[Timer]

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Why does some moran have to bring this up once a week?

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Go back to OOT you f'n troll asswipe.

[jakethebake]

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Why does some moran have to bring this up once a week?

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Go back to OOT you f'n troll asswipe.

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I fail to see how pointing out that a topic has been argued to death is being a troll so [censored] you, assclown.

[Angelic_Ace]

I look at it like this - the poker craze is happening, none of us can stop that. It is going to run its course, and there will be the financial winners and losers. If you enjoy the challenge and benefits of being a serious player, why not take a piece of the pie? Someone is going to. It is either going to be you, or someone less skilled/devoted than you (because you have hypothetically chosen not to play for ethical reasons, despite your ability to beat the game).

Personally, I am from a family with no money. My parents could not offer me any financial assistance in my life. I also had a troubled childhood and when I went to college after High School, I was unprepared to deal with it and obtain a degree and 'regular' career. I am, however, very adept at gaming of all sorts and have proven profitable at poker. I am using my winnings to allow myself the chance to escape the lower-class lifestyle, and also to help the other troubled members of my family. You might not see poker as productive at all, but for me, it is taking disposable income from college kids with too much money as well as consenting adults, and channeling it into something I see as very productive and natural (caring for oneself and family).