Pocket TT

mojobluesman · #1 12-22-2005, 01:50 PM

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This is tough without reads, but MP1 could be betting a draw or a smaller pocket pair. I agree that you should raise or fold, and raising is reasonable on the flop. Folding is ok too without a read.

I would take a free turn, though, especially after everyone called your flop raise. You can then think about calling to snap off a bluff on a safe river card.

Obviously, that river card is not safe. Good fold.

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The problem I have with taking a free card on the turn is that "if I am ahead" I am giving a free card to someone that might have folded to the bet. I'm not comfortable with that.

Fantam · #2 12-22-2005, 01:58 PM

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The problem I have with taking a free card on the turn is that "if I am ahead" I am giving a free card to someone that might have folded to the bet. I'm not comfortable with that.

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I think the trouble is that you were very unlikely to have the best hand after the dangerous turn card fell.

If a blank had fallen, then betting to protect your hand would have made sense.

Songwind · #3 12-22-2005, 01:59 PM

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The problem I have with taking a free card on the turn is that "if I am ahead" I am giving a free card to someone that might have folded to the bet. I'm not comfortable with that.

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With a flush draw, 3 to the straight and one (popular) overcard, how often do you think you're ahead?

Eeegah · #4 12-22-2005, 02:04 PM

Why would taking a free card matter here? We're either ahead, a two outer or drawing dead. (edit: oh wait, da flush sorry--but a T high flush doesn't really make me feel comfy.)

And with only two opponents I ain't giving credit to the flush. That said, hahaha did you ever get [censored] by this board. Good fold, but you didn't need me to tell you that.

Edit: That said, I think betting the turn is dubious anyway. Why did MP1 bet the flop? He may have a weak jack, which beats us. It was also possible he was on a draw--but that turn completed every possible draw. The pot is still small, so I think checking intending to fold the river U/I is a good plan. Maybe this contradicts what I said earlier, I dunno [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

mojobluesman · #5 12-22-2005, 02:17 PM

I understand the thinking on the turn, but assuming there is any chance I am ahead, when I check the turn I am inviting a weaker pair to bet the river. Maybe that's not as applicable in this case. However, one of the things I really dislike about giving up the lead is that once you show weakness, the bets come at you in the next round and you have no idea where you are. Usually, I'd rather bet, keep some fold equity and have the option of checking on the river. Because if a bet comes on the river, I usually have to call anyway because I invited it by being weak on the turn.

tyler_cracker · #6 12-22-2005, 02:22 PM

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if a bet comes on the river, I usually have to call anyway because I invited it by being weak on the turn.

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This is, in fact, one of the selling points of checking behind on the turn. This is inducing a bluff (or a bet from a weaker hand), which you intend to snap off by calling a river bet.

mojobluesman · #7 12-22-2005, 02:30 PM

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if a bet comes on the river, I usually have to call anyway because I invited it by being weak on the turn.

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This is, in fact, one of the selling points of checking behind on the turn. This is inducing a bluff (or a bet from a weaker hand), which you intend to snap off by calling a river bet.

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So you are saying that giving up any small potential I have to get one or both opponents to fold on the turn by betting is worth waiting to the see the river. Because either way I get one bet in if I am ahead (and maybe 2 if the river is a T).

tyler_cracker · #8 12-22-2005, 02:58 PM

No one that you want to fold is folding for 1 bet on the turn after that flop action. The most likely holdings for your opponents are a weak jack (never folding), a flush draw (which you are now behind), a straight draw (which may have just come in and which is never folding), or a lower pocket pair (drawing to 2 outs).

You're behind here a lot, so you can't bet for value. Since no one that you want to fold is going to fold, you can't bet to protect your hand. So you should check and see the river. This has the happy side-effect of dodging a check/raise (to which you would have to fold!) from a draw that just got there.

Once you "show weakness" by checking, some weaker hands might bet for you, or a stronger hand might bet. Either way, it costs you the same 1 BB to call the river as it would to bet the turn, plus you get to see a showdown, plus you win an extra bet from a lower PP that would have folded the turn but has now bet out because you are "weak".

Does that help?