Being good at poker

[Ryno]

I was in a hand last night, UB 30-60, I think it was 6 or 7-handed. Tight but otherwise unknown player opens, I 3bet on the button with TT, fish calls in BB, opener caps, we call.

Flop is 9 high raggy. Check; bet; I raise; fish calls 2; opener calls.

Turn pairs the 9. Opener bets.

At that moment I see what he did. He didn't 3bet the flop because he wants me to attack his donkbet on the turn with a raise. If he 3bets the flop then there is little chance he can present the fish with 2 bets to go.

But there is that nagging inner child that is afraid of "people making moves on me", and dammit I have an overpair to this board, and I can't very well just call with this fish behind me. It's "raise or fold" time.

I did the opener's bidding and raised. I lost the hand.

There are many hands posted where the hero stands up to aggression, makes tough calls, etc., but not so much a tight fold, like an overpair vs. a fish and an unknown. I'm curious if the top players here see the hand as I've laid it out, and say "oh yeah, easy fold on the turn", or if I am being results-oriented.

Comments most appreciated.

[Dominic]

I think you read the hand perfectly. And you still called it down, dammit - I'd have done the same!

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[spoohunter]

I wouldn't have raised this turn. I would have called. The fish behind you could easily have one of the x x and be drawing to 5 outs. You want him to stay in, not leave. of course you'd like him to call two and stay in, but you're not ahead often enough to raise, and besides, he folds an x to two anyway, so calling is best.

[elindauer]

For what it's worth, I don't think decisions like this are key to being good at poker. More like being "great" at poker.

What would do? It's a tough spot. Folding is ok not closing the action and probably drawing to 2 outs. Remember that the other guy is bluffing less often with the fish in there and the board pairing, and your pair is pretty low.

If he caps a wide range, maybe it's different, but against most players the best play is probably to fold. I don't know if I actually would though, and I do ok at this game. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-Eric

[Tommy Angelo]

"It's "raise or fold" time."
---------------

I used to think like that a lot on the turn. Now I hardly ever do. It's more likely to be "Fold or call time," or "Call or raise" time.

The times it used to be "raise or fold" times are now "Raise, call, or fold" times.

On this hand, I'd call.

1) I really want to still have my cards in case a ten comes on the river, and I don't want to ever pay three bets on the turn to get there.

2) If I raise the turn and the big blind has a nine, he reraises and now I call another bet to hit a ten.

3) If I raise the turn and the big blind does not make it three bets, the opener might.

4) So if I raise the turn and I am behind, which seems likely enough, then I rate to get three-betted. I can easily save all that grief and money. I call.

5) As a side note, I don't mind taking mathematically slightly the worst of it when knowingly drawing when calling a raise on the turn to catch a nut-full-house two-outter on the river at B&M poker. It's like poker chocolate to me. Something I allow myself from time to time because it's such a tasty treat and the aftertaste lingers on.

6) On the turn on your hand, I'd be thinking river, and then showdown. If by only calling on the turn I lose the pot because I didn't raise, in other words, if it so happens that my tens had the opener beat, and that the BB had a hand that he would call one bet with, but not two, and then he calls one bet and then he hits a card that beats me, well, you can put that scenario on the negative side of the "Just call" balance sheet. There's not much over there.

Tommy

[Ryno]

"against most players the best play is probably to fold. I don't know if I actually would though"

AHA! Why not?

[J_V]

I've always stated that almost all statements that say it's either on extreme or another but not something in the middle are almost always wrong. For example, either the Red Sox are gonna win big or the Yankees, but it's definitely not gonna be close.

This is especially true for raise or fold situations in poker.

[Ryno]

Nice post sir.

I think the problem, though, is that it wasn't raise or fold time at all. It was fold time. It was a moment of clarity, if you will, that I chose to ignore.

You had a post last week where a guy open limped on the button, the SB says "HA" and completes, and you check. The flop gives you top pair and *you* fold, but the SB goes to the end. *He* was the one who said "ha" out loud, but still called down. Why do you think you could fold, but the SB could not?

[SA125]

I'm playing $15-30 in the local club. Sesspool of diarrhea players. About 5 take the flop and I get a free pass in the BB with T6o.

Flop 78xr. Checked around.

Turn 9x. I bet, couple of folds, raise $60, raise $90. I stare at the board, digest and ferment. I fold.

River was a J and I would have split 3 way with JT, JT.

What that has to do with your hand is everything and nothing.

Like elindaur said. Being good poker, I don't know. Probably. But finding yourself in these spots where you're obviously in a good way, yet probably not, are a good test though.

Maybe I'll have lady luck swing my way and bump into Jeffage in the Taj $40 game this week.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the problem, though, is that it wasn't raise or fold time at all. It was fold time. It was a moment of clarity, if you will, that I chose to ignore

[/ QUOTE ]

The way he played this in my experience his range of hands are AK, AQ, any PP JJ or lower and possibly A9 or 9Ts. His most likely range of hands are AK, JJ, 88-55. This is clearly not a fold IMO.