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#11
08-05-2005, 03:51 PM
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Re: KK on the Button - What\'s the Play?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Lloyd, thanks for the response. If I re-raise pre-flop to, say, $8,000 and villain re-raises me all-in, then what would you do? Thanks [/ QUOTE ] I probably agree with pushing pre-flop but not because a normal raise commits us to the pot anyway. I would suggest pushing simply because making a normal raise is typically a very strong hand. Pushing is often a hand like JJ or AK which might get a call from a smaller pair. That's the second point you made which is completely valid but the whole "might as well push because you're pot committed" argument isn't the best one in a situation like this. If you're reraising pre-flop, first you're pretty much committing yourself to play for all your chips, so just push. Second, a small re-raise let's him get away easy preflop. Do you want that if he's got 88-JJ, AQ, and might easily call your push? [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] If it's raised to 4xBB, and he only reraises to 8x, is that considered a "normal raise"?? I'd have thought more like 10x.... then after the flop, unless there's an ace and he makes a great read, how can he not push anyway? [/ QUOTE ] Well, it's considered a normal raise with a big hand. That's why I personally wouldn't do it. Of course by making any type of a raise he's committed to the hand. That's not the point. Your statement that you might as well push since you're committed to the pot anyway isn't the line of thought you should be having here. It should be "I have the second best hand possible. If he has AA I'm screwed and don't care. What is the best way for me to get the rest of his chips in the pot?" Maybe you push. Maybe you make a normal raise and push or trap on the flop. Maybe you call with the idea of trapping. It depends on who you're up against and your image. But don't just push because you're pot committed. Push because you think that's how you'll get the rest of his chips in the middle. And that would be a line I often take. 
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#12
08-05-2005, 04:01 PM
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Re: KK on the Button - What\'s the Play?
I think you trapped him well by not raising pre-flop. On the flop, I'd min-raise to 8K. It's called the "I think you have sh*t raise". This kind of raise makes people do strange things and gives you a good chance to stack him where he might fold to a larger raise here or he might fold if you just call and you bet on the turn.
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#13
08-05-2005, 04:02 PM
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Re: KK on the Button - What\'s the Play?
What's villian's stack? That would affect my play before and on the flop. You also need to take into consideration the stacks in the blinds.
Anyway, I'm reraising to 10000 preflop.
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#14
08-05-2005, 04:08 PM
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Re: KK on the Button - What\'s the Play?
Here's what transpired. After he bet, I pushed all-in. He calls and show me AA.
I guess that no matter whether you re-raise pre-flop or wait until after the flop to go all-in, you're going to lose all of your chips again AA. Unless, of course, you are able let go of the hand pre-flop. If you re-raise and you are re-raised all-in, I'm sure that some people would be able to let of KK, but it's a tough call.
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#15
08-05-2005, 04:10 PM
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Re: KK on the Button - What\'s the Play?
His stack was about $23K so he had me covered.
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#16
08-05-2005, 04:13 PM
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Re: KK on the Button - What\'s the Play?
Barring a great read, virtually impossible to get rid of preflop, as Lloyd correctly pointed out....
[ QUOTE ] If you never fold KK pre-flop you will be far ahead then those times you're caught by AA. [/ QUOTE ]
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#17
08-05-2005, 04:19 PM
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Re: KK on the Button - What\'s the Play?
I don't see any way to get away from this hand and given that we don't have any reads on villian any one that lays the hand down I think is play very poorly. It sucks that he had AA and even more than he had you covered since you had a pretty decent stack. This is just one of those "that's poker" hands. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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#18
08-05-2005, 04:22 PM
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Re: KK on the Button - What\'s the Play?
[ QUOTE ]
Barring a great read, virtually impossible to get rid of preflop, as Lloyd correctly pointed out.... [ QUOTE ] If you never fold KK pre-flop you will be far ahead then those times you're caught by AA. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] Yes, this pretty much sums it up. This being the case, you may as well re-raise pre-flop and try to get some more chips in the middle, be happy if you take the pot down right there, or not be worried about going all-in. There is only 1 hand that beats you, and if it's there . . . that's poker.
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#19
08-05-2005, 04:36 PM
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Re: KK on the Button - What\'s the Play?
[ QUOTE ]
Unless, of course, you are able let go of the hand pre-flop. If you re-raise and you are re-raised all-in, I'm sure that some people would be able to let of KK, but it's a tough call. [/ QUOTE ] Folding KK at any point in this hand would have been very bad. The stacks are way too shallow and its impossible in this situation to gain enough information to wisely lay it down.
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#20
08-05-2005, 05:08 PM
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Re: KK on the Button - What\'s the Play?
Before I read the replies:
First, I would have raised pre-flop with KK to get more money in the pot. I'm sure someone is going to ask about the Villain's stack size. I don't see any reason why if you didn't have the best hand pre-flop you wouldn't have it now. Villain may have hit a set, but I think you have to raise here, if for no other reason than to define your hand. Again, had you raised pre-flop you might have a better sense of where you are, but it really doesn't seem like you have anything to worry about. Since any significant raise pot commits you, you should move in. I assume you ran into a set or an odd straight. FOITNOF, -D.
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