Sometimes you'd rather miss.

David Ottosen · #1 12-07-2002, 07:58 PM

Ok here's two hands of 2-4 paradise where by the time it was my turn to act on the river, I had a pretty big hand, but didn't really know what to do anyways.

First hand:
I am in the SB with AcKd. One limper, then a raise. Three cold callers to me and I 3 bet. BB cold calls, limper folds, raiser 4 bets. Everyone calls and 5 people see the flop. This is somewhat unusual as the game has been fairly typical to this point. I'm not sure if I like my hand right now.

Flop: Kc Td 8d

You know, sometimes, you'd almost rather just miss. Anyways, I lead out. BB calls, raiser raises, two cold calls, the button folds, I 3 bet, BB calls, all call. 4 of us see the turn for 3 bets. I'm concerned that the preflop raiser may have AA and is worried about KK. I couldn't really figure the other two; draws or weaker kings I assumed.

Turn: Ah

Well, is that a new ball of wax or what? It seems pretty unlikely that the raiser now has AA, no? Well, let's just lead out and see what happens. BB calls. Preflop raiser calls. Now the last player raises. I call, BB calls, preflop raiser calls. I am now very confused.

River: 7s (board AKT87 no flush possible).

I check. Now BB leads?! Preflop raiser calls, and last raises again. I like to fold here? The pot is currently approaching 30BB.

Hand 2:

I am in the BB with the cutesy Kc2d. 6 people limp in and I check.

Flop: 6c 3c 2s
I check, next two check, then a bet. 3 call to me and I make a semi marginal call with bottom pair, overcard, running 2nd nut flush draw? UTG calls, then a checkraise. Everyone except one person calls and 5 of us see the turn.

Turn: 2c

You know, sometimes you'd just rather miss? I bet out. 2 people call.

River: Kh

I bet out, BB raises, flop checkraiser 3bets. I like to call. BB calls. Should I cap the river here?

David Ottosen · #2 12-07-2002, 08:01 PM

Hand 1: as expected, last to act had QhJh for the nuts. The other two players in the hand both also had AK!

Hand 2: BB had QcTc and flop checkraiser had Ac5c, both with a flush. My hand took the pot and my intelligence and judgment received favorable reviews from all the experts at the table.

Ulysses · #3 12-07-2002, 08:13 PM

I check. Now BB leads?! Preflop raiser calls, and last raises again. I like to fold here? The pot is currently approaching 30BB.

Well, last seemed to like the turn and river, so it smells like QJ. Still, I probably make a crying call here. If there's more action after this, I throw away my 3rd place hand.

I bet out, BB raises, flop checkraiser 3bets. I like to call. BB calls. Should I cap the river here?

Absolutely.

bernie · #4 12-07-2002, 09:43 PM

first hand i think you lost to the str8. the 'new' bettor on the river weathered alot of action. i dont think hes betting here with a lower 2 pair. do you? not too sure what the preflop raiser may have. maybe AK also....i cant imagine a smaller pkt pair playing this far...he may have backed off with his set of Ts too though...maybe...you did 3 bet out of the small blind, so it could be plausible for him to put you on an overset here....

2nd hand, i wouldnt raise this river, id guess your beaten by a bigger FH. but a flush might bet here, but their not raising or 3 betting this river...why the flush wouldnt bet the turn but will the river is beyond me though. the flop c/r'er may have just called his FH on the turn though....making it look like the flush card scared him...id just call....it's 3 bets to you on a paired board and youre unsure of your read. unsure=dont bet into a void. it's careless betting. but be prepared for the cap behind you...

honestly, it seemed like you didnt really think of what cards youd like to hit in these hands...the 'sometimes youd rather miss' line. you turn trips on one hand...you dont like that card? what were you hoping for the turn to bring on the flop call? i think if youre seriously saying that youd rather miss, you shouldnt have been in the hand anyway.

b

bernie · #5 12-07-2002, 09:51 PM

nice bunch of idiots playing in hand 2. way overplaying their flushes on the river here, yet they BOTH leave the turn alone. if the paired board scares them on the turn, what's changed on the river? morons....

i still wouldve only called this out. gotta love those guys in the game...the mopes

b

Ulysses · #6 12-07-2002, 10:24 PM

I check, next two check, then a bet. 3 call to me and I make a semi marginal call with bottom pair, overcard, running 2nd nut flush draw? UTG calls, then a checkraise. Everyone except one person calls and 5 of us see the turn.

I'd rarely play this, but if I felt like playing, I'd rather bet out than call a bet. With a bet and 3 callers, plus a couple to act after you, I think this is a very bad call. Even before the check-raise, which of your outs do you really like?

Ed Miller · #7 12-07-2002, 11:04 PM

In the first hand, having just read B&C's section on Reraising, they would suggest just calling the flop raise rather than 3-betting... and then betting out on the turn if a blank comes and checking the turn if a threatening card comes. I don't quite know whether I agree with the advice yet... but it is pretty clear that that would be their advice in this situation.

LP turn raiser has QJ, I'm afraid. Something like AT is possible... but then when he raises the river when bet into again, he's got QJ. I would fold the river... you don't win this one even 1/16 I think.

In Hand 2... honestly, I would probably cap the river. To be fair, I don't think any holdings for your opponents really make much sense here given the turn play... but there's no particularly good reason to put your friends on a set here, and you can't be reraised... so you are risking one bet to make hopefully two.

David Ottosen · #8 12-08-2002, 07:37 AM

What I expected to happen on the flop was a bet and many folds, one of which would have been me. I didn't bet out because I wasn't planning to continue with the hand.

As it stood, getting 10-1 on the flop call, I felt it was probably worth it (but note I said it was a semi-marginal call to begin with). I tend to find that when there is a bet and several callers, the likelihood of getting checkraised is slim.

For my outs, I like all of them. I think 2 pair will probably have a very good chance of winning this hand, and the running flush draw has some value as well. Maybe I was being overoptimistic.