God is Love

[Girchuck]

The original post title was "God is love"

I am trying to point out that no love was shown to the people that god killed. None at all.

Why is it that you are unmoved by potential destruction of billions of lives? Do you not value human life?

What is your relationship to god?

Are you a child?
a servant?
a slave?
a toy?

[gasgod]

[ QUOTE ]
The answers to all your questions have been given already. Romans 9 states that God predestines some for destruction that His glory may be shown. ... Everything is done that God may be glorified.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, he destroys people to show us how wonderful he is? If he is infinitely wiser than us, why would he care what we think? To assert that an infinitely wise and powerful being does things to glorify himself is incomprehensible.

GG

[udontknowmickey]

[ QUOTE ]

The original post title was "God is love"

I am trying to point out that no love was shown to the people that god killed. None at all.

Why is it that you are unmoved by potential destruction of billions of lives? Do you not value human life?

What is your relationship to god?

Are you a child?
a servant?
a slave?
a toy?


[/ QUOTE ]

In a sense, you are right. No saving love was demonstrated to the people He killed. So what? If you define love from the Bible, it is perfectly consistant. If you don't, then why would your objection even mean anything?

I tried to clarify the post in some of my replies. God is Love is still true.

While I am moved that billions of lives have not come to Christ and deeply saddened that many alive today while there's still hope blatently disregard His commandments, I do know that God is in soveign control of everything so that He will bring glory to Himself. That I can rest assured in.

Why do you value human life? What logical arguement can you present that would cause you to believe that? You call yourself rational, so prove it. Argue from deductive laws of logic and true premesis that human life is valuable and should be perserved (under specific conditions, and use the same logic and premises to specify those conditions)

I am a child of God, not by my own merits by but Christ's alone. I am an adopted brother and raised from the dead, not a servant, but a friend.

[udontknowmickey]

[ QUOTE ]


So, he destroys people to show us how wonderful he is? If he is infinitely wiser than us, why would he care what we think? To assert that an infinitely wise and powerful being does things to glorify himself is incomprehensible.


[/ QUOTE ]

To assert that an infinitely wise being can be completely comprehended by finitely stupid humans (and I include myself in this) is incomprehensible.

[gasgod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


So, he destroys people to show us how wonderful he is? If he is infinitely wiser than us, why would he care what we think? To assert that an infinitely wise and powerful being does things to glorify himself is incomprehensible.


[/ QUOTE ]

To assert that an infinitely wise being can be completely comprehended by finitely stupid humans (and I include myself in this) is incomprehensible.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, you say that we cannot understand the infinite mind. But then in the next breath, you (or at least most Christians) eagerly tell us exactly what God wants us to do. How is it that you can know this?

Well, of course, the answer is that God told you what he wants, right? Unfortunately, anybody can make the same claim, and there is no clear way to know who, if anybody, has the inside track to the mind of God.

Back to my original question. How can an infinite God be so eager to be glorified? Dodging the question by saying that you cannot understand the mind of God simply invalidates every argument you might possess for the validity of Christianity.

You cannot have it both ways.

GG

[udontknowmickey]

[ QUOTE ]


You are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, you say that we cannot understand the infinite mind. But then in the next breath, you (or at least most Christians) eagerly tell us exactly what God wants us to do. How is it that you can know this?

Well, of course, the answer is that God told you what he wants, right? Unfortunately, anybody can make the same claim, and there is no clear way to know who, if anybody, has the inside track to the mind of God.

Back to my original question. How can an infinite God be so eager to be glorified? Dodging the question by saying that you cannot understand the mind of God simply invalidates every argument you might possess for the validity of Christianity.


[/ QUOTE ]

I deny that we can completely comprehend God's ways. I do say that we can have a finite knowledge of God and His commands through Scripture. This knowledge is not complete in any way, but it is sufficient for every good work.

I will freely confess that I cannot judge God nor make decisions as to why God planned things out so that His glory may be shown.

What's so contradictory about an infinite God desiring glory anyways? You are making claims so I ask that you prove that Scripture is contradictory by showing from Scripture (and defining the terms) that:

1) God is infinite
2) God desires glory (what does desires mean anyways? God owns the cattle of a thousand hills and is not served by human hands, you'll have to define desire as well)
3) an infinite being does not desire glory
4) therefore one of 1 or 2 is false (or maybe both)

[gasgod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


You are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand, you say that we cannot understand the infinite mind. But then in the next breath, you (or at least most Christians) eagerly tell us exactly what God wants us to do. How is it that you can know this?

Well, of course, the answer is that God told you what he wants, right? Unfortunately, anybody can make the same claim, and there is no clear way to know who, if anybody, has the inside track to the mind of God.

Back to my original question. How can an infinite God be so eager to be glorified? Dodging the question by saying that you cannot understand the mind of God simply invalidates every argument you might possess for the validity of Christianity.


[/ QUOTE ]

I deny that we can completely comprehend God's ways. I do say that we can have a finite knowledge of God and His commands through Scripture. This knowledge is not complete in any way, but it is sufficient for every good work.

I will freely confess that I cannot judge God nor make decisions as to why God planned things out so that His glory may be shown.

What's so contradictory about an infinite God desiring glory anyways? You are making claims so I ask that you prove that Scripture is contradictory by showing from Scripture (and defining the terms) that:

1) God is infinite
2) God desires glory (what does desires mean anyways? God owns the cattle of a thousand hills and is not served by human hands, you'll have to define desire as well)
3) an infinite being does not desire glory
4) therefore one of 1 or 2 is false (or maybe both)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the long and the short of it is this: Is the Bible the word of God? If not, then Christianity has zero claim to validity. If so, then Christianity is valid. Simple.

But for Christianity to be valid, two things must be true:

1. There is a God.

2. The God that exists in condition 1 has revealed his wishes via the Bible.

Unless both of these are true, Christianity is just another in a long string of belief systems that have deluded its adherents. So, why is the Bible to be believed? I just don't think the evidence is there. You have chosen to believe, for whatever reasons. Good luck to you.

GG

[udontknowmickey]

[ QUOTE ]

Well, the long and the short of it is this: Is the Bible the word of God? If not, then Christianity has zero claim to validity. If so, then Christianity is valid. Simple.

But for Christianity to be valid, two things must be true:

1. There is a God.

2. The God that exists in condition 1 has revealed his wishes via the Bible.

Unless both of these are true, Christianity is just another in a long string of belief systems that have deluded its adherents. So, why is the Bible to be believed? I just don't think the evidence is there. You have chosen to believe, for whatever reasons. Good luck to you.


[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying that you would believe something (namely statements 1 and 2) if there was "evidence."

In order to be completely logical, you must hold up your own beliefs to the doubt you express towards mine (namely that there isn't evidence).

What constitutes as evidence? How do you determine if something is evidence or not? You stated that you didn't think there was "evidence." Is that an evidence "at all"? or is it a "sufficient evidence"? Do you have evidence to prove that something is evidence?

Why do the two conditions have to be true in order for the Bible to be the Word of God? Is there evidence to believe that those two conditions must be met? Do you have evidence that you need evidence to believe something?

I could continue, but I believe my point has been made that your own worldview is riddled with inconsistencies.

For me, the Bible is the Word of God. In order to believe anything (logic, value of human life, morals) one must start from the whole of the Bible, and all issues are then solved.

[gasgod]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do the two conditions have to be true in order for the Bible to be the Word of God?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's really quite simple. If condition 1 is false, that is, if there is no God, then then the Bible cannot be the word of God, right?

If condition 2 is false, that is, if God has not revealed his wishes in the Bible, then Christianity has no claim to validity. Understand that I am not saying that Christianity cannot be valid unless these two conditions are met. I am simply saying that absent these two conditions, Christianity has no more claim to validity than any other belief system.

Briefly put, if the Bible isn't the word of God, what do you have? And why do you believe that the Bible is the word of God?

GG

[udontknowmickey]

[ QUOTE ]


Briefly put, if the Bible isn't the word of God, what do you have? And why do you believe that the Bible is the word of God?


[/ QUOTE ]

While I am waiting for your answers for my other questions (since you continue to press for "evidence" in spite of your inability to provide it for your own beliefs), I will do you the favor of answering this.

If the Bible isn't the Word of God, then the universe is unintelligible, irrational, and illogical, with no possibility of knowledge, logic, morals, purpose.

If this is false, then someone define just one thing using a completely consistant and self-affirming worldview. Arguing from true premises come up with a logical explanation for something. You already run up into an impossibility in establishing something as a "true premise" because how do you prove your assumptions true?

I believe in the Bible because it is self affirming and consistant. This is sufficient, but it does lend other things: It answer the ultimate questions of purpose, existence, consciousness, free will (or lack thereof), ultimate morals, sensation, the existence and trancendance of logic, knowledge, salvation.

Basically in order for anything to exist, one must first presuppose the entire Bible in order for it to be intelligble.

By the very nature of logic (which is necessary to any worldview, do you see why?), it is impossible to prove one's ultimate assumption true. My ultimate assumption is the Bible. What is yours? It's clear you're using an assumed premise to come to a worldview from which to criticize mine. What is that assumed premise?

Now that I've answered your questions, I do request that you get around to answering any one of the various ones I've posed through this thread. I will sum up some of them:

1) What makes something just or injust? By what authority do we impose this definition on others?

2) Why should human life be valued? Why is it wrong to not value it? By what authority can we impose this value on others?

3) What defines something as "good" or "bad"? By what authority can we impose this value on others?

4) What constitutes as evidence? Why does something have to be evidence in order to be true? Do you have sufficient evidence for the belief that you need evidence to believe something? (Is there evidence that a fire hydrant is red for example?)

5) What is your "true premise" that you use to logically argue against the logic of the Bible? Where is your source of logic? By what authority must everything be logical?