A/10o in LP - Too aggro PF?

UncleSalty · #1 03-11-2005, 02:00 AM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP3 posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

 Is my 3-bet ok here to fold the blinds, or is folding better?

Flop: (16.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (10.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

 I assume w/ the pot odds I'm fine raising and even ok if someone 3-bets here, correct?

River: (17.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19.75 BB

Thanks Guys, this is my first hand post. Go Gentle!

Edit: Forgot to mention the table is pretty LAP, no reads on MP3 cause he just sat down

GrunchCan · #2 03-11-2005, 02:04 AM

Fold PF.
Just call the turn. You don't have the equity to raise yet.
Fold the river. Why did you call?

the_rookie · #3 03-11-2005, 02:09 AM

Whenever a poster raises me I generally assume he has something decent to not take a check. So I wouldn't even call this preflop. You can find better hands than this.

I might lean towards a raise on the flop to see if I can buy a free card. You've showed strength preflop, so a raise can accomplish this.

I never really know about turn raises with draws, even if you have the equity to do it. I would just call and hope for good river. I will pump a draw on the flop because I have two chances to hit my draws, but on the turn I'm down to my last card.

River- yes the pot is huge, but there is no way you are winning this hand enough to make this call profitable.

UncleSalty · #4 03-11-2005, 02:13 AM

I guess I called the river because I thought A high could be the best hand about 10% of the time. Is this pot not big enough for that kind of call down? (And, how big does it need to be to call down w/ a likely beat hand?)

With a 10BB+ pot I thought that having 20% equity would mean I can raise to 2BB with multiple callers. No? Am I totally misinterpreting SSH here?

And, in retrospect, I see now the PF should have been a fold. I guess my gut reaction to the posters raise was that it was BS, so I saw it as an "implied collusion" opportunity to push the blinds out.

Thanks for the advice!

the_rookie · #5 03-11-2005, 02:14 AM

Post deleted for stupidity.... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

UncleSalty · #6 03-11-2005, 02:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't have the equity to raise yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

But against 3 opponents he does have equity to his flush, no? Around 35% to hit, and only contributing 25% to the pot on the turn.

Maybe I got it wrong, but I thought that was why we'd raise the flop with a flush draw when 2 or more opponents will come along for the ride. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

EDIT- I think I got this equity thing wrong. Back to the books I go...

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my logic too...if I need 4.11 pot odds and I'm still getting better than 5:1 for a 2-bet, why isn't this play +EV?

istewart · #7 03-11-2005, 02:16 AM

If the flop was three spades he could raise after 3 people were in for value. But you're ~17% to hit on the river, not 35%.

the_rookie · #8 03-11-2005, 02:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If the flop was three spades he could raise after 3 people were in for value. But you're ~17% to hit on the river, not 35%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the insight...

GrunchCan · #9 03-11-2005, 02:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
With a 10BB+ pot I thought that having 20% equity would mean I can raise to 2BB with multiple callers. No? Am I totally misinterpreting SSH here?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're confusing pot equity with pot odds.

Pot equity (actually, pot equity edge) is computed by comparing the chance that you will win the pot with what your "fair share" is. You determine what your fair share is by counting the number of opponents.

In this hand, you have around 20% pot equity becasue you will improve to the best hand and win about 20% of the time. (Count & discount the outs to determine this.) But there are a total of 5 people contending for the pot, including yourself. So your fair share is 1/5, or 20%. If your pot equity is more than youjr fair share, you have a pot equity edge, and you should raise. If you don't have an equity edge, it might be right to call (pot odds tell you this), but you can't raise for value.

Make sense?

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I called the river because I thought A high could be the best hand about 10% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is absolutely no way your hand is best 10% of the time here. There are lots of clues, but one real big clue is the fact that the villan bet in to the PF raiser (you) and kept the pressure on through the turn. He likes his hand.

I would say A high is best maybe 1% of the time. Less, even.

UncleSalty · #10 03-11-2005, 02:25 AM

Post deleted by UncleSalty