weak tight AKs line (22)

mlagoo · #1 12-24-2005, 12:58 AM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

Button (t660)
SB (t810)
BB (t945)
Hero (t800)
UTG+1 (t770)
UTG+2 (t585)
MP1 (t695)
MP2 (t775)
MP3 (t1065)
CO (t895)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls t15, 2 folds, MP1 calls t15, 1 fold, MP3 calls t15, CO calls t15, Button calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t102.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets t15, BB folds, Hero calls t15, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls t15, Button calls t15.

Turn: (t162.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets t15, Hero raises to t100, CO calls t100, Button folds, SB calls t85.

River: (t462.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: t462.50

A number of questions:

(1) Limp preflop? I sort of felt like playing it different, I typically raise here, but I was thinking when UTG or UTG+1 limping may not be too bad.

(2) Flop -- Kind of a no-brainer. Backdoor nut flush draw and two overcards.

(3) Turn -- A-ding-dang-doo. I hit an overcard. Now what? How is bet size here? Does anyone prefer a call?

(4) River -- Am I missing value by not betting this river? I checked with intentions of calling any bet. Is this bad?

Ok, flame away! Later dooders.

pergesu · #2 12-24-2005, 01:08 AM

You forgot to raise preflop.

Anyway sure about calling the flop. The turn, you HAVE to raise, but only because SB noobtard-bet it. Basically you're saying "this is the bet he was SUPPOSED to make" cause it's designed to get the others out. If he had bet something like t120, you just call, knowing that the people behind you will certainly fold. This puts you in position HU with the best hand and without impetus - ideal situation for making $$. But his bet won't get anyone to fold, so you have to make a raise that will get them to fold. So you get the next best thing - all of the above but with impetus. You also have to raise more, like 150.

Just realize that had he made a real bet, you should just call. You need everyone behind you to fold, so after your chips go in the middle it should be the amount that will make them fold, regardless of whether you raise or just call.

bluef0x · #3 12-24-2005, 01:20 AM

No way you should limp this preflop.. bu-bu-bump it up.

Flop call is ok... turn is standard but I'd raise more maybe 125ish. River is okay, kind of scary the player behind you called your bet on the turn.

mlagoo · #4 12-24-2005, 01:22 AM

ok, i wont miss the raise in the future. havent played for a few weeks, im getting craaaazy ideas in my head [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

gumpzilla · #5 12-24-2005, 01:34 AM

I'd usually raise PF. With that family pot, calling on the flop is pretty clearly the way to go. I like the turn bet. The river is a tough call. Given that you did limp PF, a 4 could definitely be out there, and low buyin players love playing trips this passively. That said, I think you can also extract some money from a Q, and I think a 4 probably would have announced its presence a little more clearly on the turn, usually. So I think a river bet is fine, and I'd make it about 150-200 or so.

FlyWf · #6 12-24-2005, 01:57 AM

1. Don't limp preflop. Being UTG makes limping worse, not better.

2. I guess you can call, but he's betting 15 into a 105 pot. Consider raising. Your overcard outs are quite dirty.

3. Raise is a bit small given potsize and how many people are still in it.

4. I dunno. I can't see anybody you beat calling you, but SB and CO have played this hand quite absurdly themselves, so who knows? When in doubt, bet.

mlagoo · #7 12-24-2005, 02:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. Don't limp preflop. Being UTG makes limping worse, not better.

2. I guess you can call, but he's betting 15 into a 105 pot. Consider raising. Your overcard outs are quite dirty.

3. Raise is a bit small given potsize and how many people are still in it.

4. I dunno. I can't see anybody you beat calling you, but SB and CO have played this hand quite absurdly themselves, so who knows? When in doubt, bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure I disagree with a lot of this, while at the same time recognizing that there are places I should have played this hand differently.

1 - Explain how being UTG makes raising better? I was always under the impression that although we don't always have an option, building a big pot in position is always going to be better than doing the same out of position.

2- I really don't like raising this flop having shown no aggression preflop. I'm pretty sure I don't fold any better hands, and I'm not sure what better hands I'm getting value from.

3- I agree [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

4-I think I disagree with "when in doubt, bet" just generally. I think that in these low limit SNGs, river bluffs in 3-way pots is a talent we just dont need.

FlyWf · #8 12-24-2005, 05:40 AM

1. Raising means fewer people to play against. I'd much rather be OOP 3-handed in a t150 pot than OOP with a trillion people behind me in a t100 pot.
2. Getting worse hands to fold on the flop is not the end of the world. You have ace high, let's not get too tricky about extracting value. And you will get small pocket pairs to fold on that board.
3.
4. At that point we aren't bluffing, we have TPTK on a reasonably scary board. Check-calling is reasonable, but this early in a 22 you can take advantage of the uberdonks. Based on the completely inexplicable way SB and CO have played, one or both of them may have no idea what is going on.

SammyKid11 · #9 12-24-2005, 05:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
(4) River -- Am I missing value by not betting this river? I checked with intentions of calling any bet. Is this bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, pretty sure you're missing value by not betting this river. Neither opponent has given any solid indication of having anything for you to be scared of. A stray 4 is certainly possible, but seems unlikely given the nature of the betting. If I had to guess, I'd say you're shown a random Q and a random pocket pair here a LOT of the time (after they've both called your river value bet).