KQs, too big of pot to fold???

smokylosecannon · #1 08-06-2005, 06:49 PM

I am UTG w/ KQs, no read on UTG+1, CO is sLA-A. I didn't know what to do once T hits the board on turn, b/f is the correct line? The pot is too big to give up, I thought. My hand might improve too. Anyone would play differently. I am especially interested for reasoning to fold on turn or river, thought I don't think its good idea to fold on turn because to possibility for my hand to improve. What about river fold??? The pot is too big. I don't mean to complain, but I like to know if I played this hand correctly. Any comment is welcome. Thanks.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (18 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, CO 3-bets, SB calls, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (17 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, CO raises, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (23 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, CO raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls $1 (All-In), UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 33.50 BB

Harv72b · #2 08-06-2005, 06:57 PM

This is a really tough situation to be in.

Okay, starting with preflop...utterly standard in every way. Good raise from UTG against your typical Party donktastic field, and you can't even think about folding after CO 3-bets.

On the flop...I like fastplaying your top 2 on such a drawy flop. I also like capping after CO 3-bets you again; you are only behind the very unlikely case kings or queens (well, and 33). I think he's got aces the vast majority of the time, or possibly AK...either way, he's usually overplaying a hand that you've outflopped.

The turn...good lead, and when CO raises yet again, you have to respect the possibility that he's holding KK or QQ despite the odds. The pot is way too big to even think about hand protection, so just check/call it down.

On the river, you're screwed. UTG+1 waking up and betting into the raiser is the first danger sign, and CO still raising is the other--understand, you are now solidly behind every hand that a reasonable player would 3-bet preflop behind an UTG raise + 2 callers. So even if UTG+1 doesn't have you beat, CO now does. Yes, it's a big pot, but I think you can save yourself a few bets and fold when it's 2 to you.

Henke · #3 08-06-2005, 06:58 PM

I would probably raise this turn and consider folding the river.

TomBrooks · #4 08-06-2005, 10:39 PM

What makes this a little harder to fold is that the last card is an Ace. Could UTG have figured all the betting so far was with Top Pair Ks and his single Ace now making top pair is good? Not likely, but possible. UTG looks like he made a straight.

So why did CO raise him again? Surely CO can't beat a straight. It's kind of weird. Or maybe CO is a Donk. If CO is a Donk, you may not want to fold two pair to him.

I'd probably call this.

Harv72b · #5 08-06-2005, 11:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So why did CO raise him again? Surely CO can't beat a straight. It's kind of weird. Or maybe CO is a Donk. If CO is a Donk, you may not want to fold two pair to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen far stranger things than someone taking CO's line with AJ, particularly if it was A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

The fact remains that at least one of them has Hero beat the vast majority of the time. Looking at the hand again, going to showdown is a little better since Hero is short-stacked and will not have to pay the full 4 BBs to get there. But Hero is still only getting about 11:1 to call to showdown, and I don't think he's good that often.

bozlax · #6 08-07-2005, 12:28 AM

CO certainly looks like he has AA/KK/QQ. I'd play it just the way you did through the turn.

On the river you lose to ANY preflop 3-betting hand (AK/AQ/AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT), plus any naked jack (JT, anyone?), and you've now got 2 players that suddenly love their hands. I call it a day when it's 2 to me, but I hate doing it.

bozlax · #7 08-07-2005, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...Hero is short-stacked...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd missed this little tidbit. OP! Shame on you! Going into a hand with fewer than 12BB is like going out driving in dirty underwear.

TomBrooks · #8 08-07-2005, 02:45 PM

Going into a hand shortstacked is like going on a date without a condom.

teajay · #9 08-07-2005, 03:03 PM

I think three betting the turn is good here. I doubt the T helped CO, because I don't think he was three beting PF with AJ. So if you felt ahead on the flop,you should still feel ahead now.

Although, I do find a fold on the river, maybe others disagree.

#10 08-07-2005, 03:34 PM

I don't buy the "The pot is too big" argument.

I would fold on the river when I check and it comes back to me with a bet and a raise.