This hand can age you a few years...

[razor]

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>,

Do I raise here? Or just call expecting to get a few more callers? I figure the raiser has something legit, so with this hand I think I want more callers.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

CO's 3-bet may or may not mean anything, he raises anytime he feels like it, maybe his cards are all black or some sort of backdoor draw or maybe he's browsing the 2+2 forums and hit the wrong button. UTG's cap concerns me. I think about folding (slap me if this shouldn't even cross my mind). I gringe slightly as I click the call button.

Turn: (12.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Well now I'm trapped. CO just calls so now I know he's got nothing, no clue about the Button.

River: (16.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button checks.

UTG checks so I know I have him beat... but the 8 could've made CO's hand and who knows what the button was calling with. I check (anyone dare bet here?) as do the rest.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 16.75 BB, between UTG, Hero, CO and Button.</font>

Everything kinda makes sense in the end but after the flop cap I'm wondering what the heck I got myself into.

Results to follow...

[cold_cash]

I would expect to lose to UTG's higher pocket pair here most of the time. He raised PF, capped the flop and led the turn. I don't think most players will play overcards that way.

I would also fold PF unless UTG is the type of player I want to isolate, in which case I would re-raise. Cold calling with AT, suited or not, isn't something I like to do.

[Jaran]

Hey Razor,
You say that UTG prolly has something legit. I would fold here pf unless I thought that UTG raised light, in which case I'm raising to isolate.

-Jaran

[razor]

So what I should be thinking is that ATs is a great hand in an unraised hand but loses a lot of value when someone has raised in front of me. The raise basically reduces the hand to little more than nut flush potential, which isn't worth playing in this situation.

Correct?

[Jaran]

I would say that pretty much sums it up. Think about what you would raise with UTG. Would you want to play ATs against any of them? You're dominated by AK-AJ. You're way behind AA. You're drawing to a 3 outer against KK-TT discounting the flush. This doesn't seem like my idea of fun. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

-Jaran

[cold_cash]

ATs isn't "great" in any pots, unraised or not. However, I think it's good enough to open-raise with in decent position usually.

If 6 people have limped and you're on the button, it's an easy raise. If a semi-competant, reasonable player open-raises in early position and everyone folds to you on the button, it's an easy fold. The chances of flopping a flush draw and having it complete don't make up for the times that you flop top-pair and pay off a better Ace or a higher pocket pair.

Basically, AT and ATs are dangerous "second besters" that have to be played carefully and only in the right situations. When a decent early position player has raised before the flop, that is exactly the situation that you DON'T want to be playing it in.

[razor]

I look back on this hand and can't quite figure out what the heck I was thinking. A month into my return to reading the 2+2 forums and my thinking on how to play has changed but I haven't quite got everything sorted out. I'll get there eventually.

The best thing about being a half-decent player is after you screw up you usually realize it and don't repeat that mistake (hopefully) or, if you aren't sure you post it at 2+2 and get a bunch of other folk set you straight (even if one of them happens to be an Avs fan).


For what it's worth...

UTG had AKo
CO had KTo
Button had K8s

MHIG...

I'll play ATs better next time.

[bisonbison]

Unless UTG is a maniac, fold preflop. Otherwise, I'd 3-bet.

Flop raise good. Turn call good. River check good. That leaves the flop call of the cap, which I had to do the math on. You're getting 11:1 here. Unless your opponent has TT, you're drawing to about 5 or 6 outs. You can call.

[HajiShirazu]

Perfect example of why you shouldn't call raises with hands like KT and AT preflop even suited.
Even with the best flops (T high) you can't like your hand too much.