Drawing to overcards on the flop? Just a check-up.

[scott8]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What part of this flop do you like?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that the pot has 13 small bets in it. I like that none of the cards are in the playing zone. I like that no one has raised and I am almost closing the action by calling. I like that there is a decent chance the blind is betting a draw and I still have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess we just disagree.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Calling tells them you have overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you have read SSHE. See the TT hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're opponents likely haven't read SSHE and will put you on overcards when you check this flop. Don't give them that much credit for thinking. Think of how they'd play the hand, not SSHE. That's what they'll be seeing in your bet pattern.

b

[TwoNiner]

I think this has to be a call here. The important thing I see is that you have great position on the action and the field. If an ace or queen of spades falls on the turn or if someone already hit a set you should have a fairly decent chance of sussing out your dilemma. Also, you shouldn't worry too much about everybody knowing you have overcards. For one, it would make since to play a big pair like this, waiting till the turn to pop it, and more importantly you don't need a whole lot more action to make it worthwile. A queen here and you are in pretty good shape. Peel one off and then play poker with the best position possible if you hit a card.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
So you wont get any action if one does turn - apart from hands which beat/tie you like UTG who might have overcards too as he'd surely raise an overpair

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necesarly. Dominated hands could still call, flush draws, mid pairs. You'll get action. The thing to look out for is the redraw if it hits.

It's still not a great spot to be in.

b

[Keith Cypress]

Clear fold & here's just a few reasons why..

1) A-Q does not play well in multi- way pots
2) You have alot of collective outs against you
3) Your outs are not clean, if you hit you may have made
someone else a better hand, so if you dont play it properly
you can cost yourself many units
4) It' a protected pot
5) Overcards for the most part are overrated & generally
should be bet w/ not called w/ for the most part

I know I've kept it simple w/ just general ideas, but this
is a clear fold! Excuse any grammar errors [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Keith Cypress,

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]

Clear fold & here's just a few reasons why..

1) A-Q does not play well in multi- way pots
2) You have alot of collective outs against you
3) Your outs are not clean, if you hit you may have made
someone else a better hand, so if you dont play it properly
you can cost yourself many units
4) It' a protected pot
5) Overcards for the most part are overrated & generally
should be bet w/ not called w/ for the most part

I know I've kept it simple w/ just general ideas, but this
is a clear fold! Excuse any grammar errors [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Keith Cypress,

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually you don't want your first post to be one where you lecture experienced players on the basics of holdem.

[Paluka]

I think this hand is a classic example of where KQ might be a call, but AK is a fold. Your ace outs are reverse-dominated too often, and you don't have any spades in your hand.

[stoxtrader]

I would peel. The pot is big enough to justify drawing to your dirty outs.

this is obviously a clear peel if you have a spade.

sure reverse domination is a concern, but you are getting a good price. The question i how good does the price have to be?

I think it's close though.

paluka = how big does the pot have to be for you to peel?

[barry.egan]

[ QUOTE ]
The question i how good does the price have to be?
I think it's close though.
paluka = how big does the pot have to be for you to peel?

[/ QUOTE ]

How big do you (stox) need the pot to be if instead the board is J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and you have 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I think the situation is the pretty close if not same...13sb is big enough to draw but it's big enough to get you caught up in an uphill battle where the times you pick up the pot are not going to make up for all the bets you lose when you hit and are no good or hit and then get sucked-out on.

[gusnyc]

With utg and cutoff calling I fold this hand. Original better probably has a flush draw or he probably would have checked to the button raiser and gone for the check raise to make utg and cutoff call two bets cold. Either way it seems to me that at least one flush draw is out there and probably a smaller pair. The only really good turn card that could come would be a queen that is not a spade - any ace could make aces up. If utg or cutoff didnt call i probably play more aggressively.