5/5 blind KK vs Raise from MP3 Tight Aggressive.

[Usagi_yo]

A MP3 Tight Aggressive player raises the 5/5 blind to $50. I'm in the CO with KK with only LP players behind. I flat call. The button calls and the blinds fold.

The TA players play isn't very inspiring, he plays rather straight forward and will bet big when he has the goods and bet less then big when he's unsure. He's only shown pocket pairs for the last two hours. We've butted heads twice during this session with me folding to large bets with mediocre holdings. The button caller is actually semi-loose passive. My image is semi-tight aggressive and tricky. I Have about $1100 in front, the others are not to far behind.

The flop comes A99 rainbow and the pot size is $210. e original raiser leads out for $60. How do you play this hand. Results in white.

<font color="white"> I decide that I'm going to call down this hand -- barring action behind me or huge bets in front. I call the $60 and the button folds we are now heads up and the 6d comes on the turn giving a flush draw with the Ad on the board. The raiser bets another $60 into the now $330 pot. I call again. River is 2s and the raiser bets $160 into the $450 pot. I called and was shown pocket 88 and took the pot with KK</font>

[AZK]

Haven't looked at the results yet, but I hate it. Is 50 a standard preflop raise in this game? It is in my 2/5 game but in most I've seen a standard raise is of 25, so if it isn't normal in your game I'd be weary. As it stands, you have to reraise preflop to see what he is doing this with. Whether it's AA, AK, JJ etc...some players raise JJ hard cause they don't want to play the hand, some do this with AA etc. Gotta find out. You also want to do this so you can play a pot heads up with position. Button calling too absolutely SUCKS. As it stands, you have to raise this flop bet, make it 150 to go and that should clear out the button and give you a better idea of what MP3 has. This seems like a way ahead/way behind flop here, I'm thinking it smells like he either flopped the 2nd nuts (AA) or he is scared of the A and has a hand like KK, QQ. If he is weak enough and you read him for being scared of the A you can easily take this away from him by slinging chips. A raise on the flop should tell you exactly where you are at. If he calls or reraises you are done with the hand.

[Usagi_yo]

Dissapointing -- I only got one response, so this is a bump too.

The reason why I'm bumping is I'm curious as to whether the more experienced of you think this is a viable strategy. Calling down with a vulnerable hand that you are pretty sure is the winner when your opponant really only has very few outs to improve, but will continue betting.

Ought I have raised the pre-flop raiser to shut out the button, SB and BB -- I realize flat calling is dangerous because I start giving decent pot odds to those behind, re-raising I felt would shut the hand down and net me only $60. I probably should have mini-raised, say to $100?

When the A99 came on the flop, I was positive my opponant didnt have a 9 -- being a pocket pair only player. I lessoned the chances that he had AK because I had KK, and ruled out AQ -- being the type of player he is. He's going to play this hand straight forward. Had he flopped Aces full, I would have expected a bigger bet on the turn. The flop bet was 1/2 the pot and I felt it might have been a setup or feeler -- trying to illicit a raise. The button player behind would only call with an Ace or a 9. When he folded I felt I was 80% the winner.

When at the river, I would have called probably folded to a bet $300 or more. I thought my opponant had lower pocket pair. I thought he thought that I put him on an Ace. I think he thought I had an Ace with the possiblity that I was slow playing a 9 -- so I figure he would keep betting small and dump to a raise.

[Morphling29]

My response would be to agree with azk. You have to raise the weak lead, but if he calls you check/fold. 50 raise preflop seems like JJ or QQ, so I think your raise will instantly take the pot. KK is always easier to play against a tight player if you reraise preflop, because if he pushes you might talk yourself into folding, I think I have done it twice ever. hope you made the correct value move for you and the game you were in.

[tbach24]

I would've raised pre-flop. However, since you didn't, I would check/call down if you think this player will continue. If you think that he'll check/fold the turn/river without improvement then you must raise the flop. This is all going by your read.

Checking results...

Nice hand.

[B Mando]

"The reason why I'm bumping is I'm curious as to whether the more experienced of you think this is a viable strategy. Calling down with a vulnerable hand that you are pretty sure is the winner when your opponant really only has very few outs to improve, but will continue betting."

I dont like the idea of calling down. The opponent in this hand seems like a weak player who will not put you to the test...so this time calling down with your KK worked out perfectly! I dont think it will work out against tougher opponents though. You called preflop, on the flop, turn, and river. You definitly need to raise and find out where you are at some point during this hand. If you feel weakness in your opponent why not raise? I dont hate the call pre flop BTW. I think you need to raise the flop though. A good raise, like HEY!, I got a big ace raise.

[queenhigh]

i'm min raise the flop here.

[quix0tic]

I think calling the flop is not a bad line but should be very player dependent. Against a guy with a lot of courage, I would avoid calling because I don't want to be put to the test on the turn. If he is a good hand reader, he will probably realize you also have a big pair and want to show it down. Against someone who is basically just playing their own cards and not yours, I would put him on TT-QQ and call down for value. A raise is representing aces up or better and only good if you want to take down the pot; obviously nothing you can beat will call it.

[ QUOTE ]
Calling down with a vulnerable hand that you are pretty sure is the winner when your opponant really only has very few outs to improve,

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has very few outs to improve, I don't consider it vulnerable... seems somewhat contradictory.

Also, if he is a pocket pair only player, don't give him odds to make a set on a low flop and break you. Make it 150 or something preflop (just make sure he is getting significantly less than 8-1). Unless you are very sharp post flop, big pairs are dangerous when stacks are 200x bb. The depth should affect your decision on every street, including possibily justifying a flop raise. Your whole line seems better suited to more shallow games. Don't give away your hand post flop in deep games unless you want to get rocked by a better loose agressive.

[Loci]

uh... My inclination here is to... run away?
I don't know what hand you beat here if you're called. If you're making a move to knock out a weak ace, maybe, but it doesn't sound like with these players that's what you're looking at.
What did we all learn from The Princess Bride ...? Don't start a land war with Russia!
Ez

[exeph]

I agree with AZK on the flop raise for the information it will provide about the bettor's hand. However, I think it's equally important to clarify the button's holding, and your raise will potentially knock him off some Ax suited hand that made a bad pre-flop call.