Is this correct (Folding KK pre-flop)?????

[Chuckster]

Here is the situation:

Multi table tourney at the Hard Rock (So Fla). $300 buy in, 220 players, top 18 make the money. Very nice payout.

I hustled over there after work and was just able to buy one of the last seats.

Everyone starts with T5000 chips and the blinds start at 50-100, going up every 30 minutes...

3rd hand of the tourney, I am on the button and get dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG and UTG +1 limp in as does someone from middle position. I make a raise to 600 chips. SB and BB fold. UTG goes all-in, UTG+1 goes all-in, middle limper goes all-in. I am thinking what the hell is going on here?????

I had no reads on any of these guys as I was literally still waiting for my drink from the waitress.

To make a long story short, I folded. This was my thinking...Someone could have AA and I am likely done. And, if I am not up against AA, I am at best just a 50% favorite to win the hand. I still had T4200 in chips and I wanted to play my game, so I threw them away.

UTG had KQ (not a misprint), UTG+1 had 10-10, middle limper had AKo. I would have won the hand and had a dominant early chip lead. Believe it or not, KQ actually won the hand as a Q flopped.

I checked the odds of all 4 hands pre-flop, and sure enough I had a 49.5% of winning the hand.

Please provide feedback on this move. What do you guys think?????

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
I checked the odds of all 4 hands pre-flop, and sure enough I had a 49.5% of winning the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you had a 50.5% chance of busting out on hand three of the tournament and you did not take it? Do you feel bad? It was a coinflip and even if you had won it that does not mean you go on to win the tournament. With no reads to the contrary you assume AA and jettision. As TJ Cloutier has pointed out only AA is big enough to go broke with preflop and you only held KK. The way it is played also makes ti look like someone was playing second hand low, that is limping and hoping to raise allin, with AA. Moreover, you have not committed any real amount of chips to this pot. Easy fold in my opinion.

Lots of players will give you different advice I am sure but this is the way I play it.

[Cleveland Guy]

Not only are you likely up against AA, but probably also something like AK, meaning you are behind and drawing to 1 out.

There aren't many places where I would fold KK pre-flop, but vs 3 all ins early, this might be one.

Escpecially given the buy in and that it's live.

[IRV]

I think there are 2 ways to look at this.

1. If you are a consistant winner in multi-tables and are better than the majority of players, then a laydown is a no brainer.

2. In most multi-tables, early on, there are gamblers and fish. They believe that risking their stack early on is the only way to make it in the money. They aren't too confident or comfortable with their skill level so that is what they do. So risking your stack here against these players is probably not a -EV play.

Ultimately I believe whatever decision you make should not be based on "Damn I just got here and I don't wanna leave" or "My $300 will be gone in 3 hands" or "My wife is gonna start ragging" =) LOL (which is what I would have been thinking to myself if I were in your position). So I think you should ask yourself is if I were playing an on-line multi tourney for maybe $30, would you have made the same laydown.

[partygirluk]

[ QUOTE ]
And, if I am not up against AA, I am at best just a 50% favorite to win the hand. I still had T4200 in chips and I wanted to play my game, so I threw them away.


[/ QUOTE ]

This logic is completely wrong. Say someone went all in first hand, and showed you 76suited. You look down and see AA. Do you call? Yes of course. The second hand of the tourney someone else doubles through. The third hand that guys pushes all in and shows you 76s. Again, you have AA. Do you call? Of course?

Your probability of quadrupling up here is only just over 50% So if you are going to fold KK even if AA is not out there, you should fold AA too. Which is silly.

The only reason you should be folding KK here is if you fear AA. FWIW, I was sitting in 4th position and saw all 3 people in front of me push, and I had KK. I insta called and was shown 33, AJo and QQ. But, to be fair, this was in a 60FPP tourney [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[betgo]

I think you need to call. Assuming it is not more likely someone has AK, you almost have odds to make your set. I think there is a decent chance no one has AA. It is almost certain not all of these players have legitimate allin hands.

[pizzaman]

I disagree with partygirl. This is certainly not an insta-call. The pre-flop action definitelycried out AA. UTG calls and then reraises all-in. Same with UTG+1. These are classic plays at lower blinds to build up a pot. I know the odds are very long against AA & KK in the same hand, but we have all seen it many times. This is especially difficult without any reads on the opponents. I get nervous taking aces against 4 opponents but like you said, you have to do it. PPs are not good multiway hands. Good fold even though the results don't bear it.

[zaxx19]

As TJ Cloutier has pointed out only AA is big enough to go broke with preflop and you only held KK.\

Of course he was referring to large buyin major tourneys not 500$ one night ones....

I actually like going multiway bc alot of times you will see AK AQ AJ or some combination meaning there is no AA and those people have less aces to catch. I probably call...I cant lay KK in small buyins...I think it has -EV longterm these people will always suprise you with their fishiness.

KQ thats just scary.

P.S. alot also depends on the reason you are playing..if its only to cash or win go ahead call without regret...if yo want practivce in live tournyes and alot of play for enjoyment a lay might be correct here...

[jojobinks]

let's not invoke tj anymore. as zaxx said, he's advocating for supertight play in huge $, with days left to play. in a small tournament players are looking to double up with 99 or jj. i drool when i see this preflop action. well, not at the moment. at the moment i guess i crap myself. but then i call, and i drool at it in retrospect.

you aren't going to get a lot of chances to quad up, not while you have a decently sized stack. i guess it's worth it, even if you think you can outplay the field. mabye especially so, as now you'll have a lot to work with.

[SossMan]

this is a really easy call especially with the WPT marathon that has been on recently and especially in Florida where they don't have much live poker.

-SossMan